Here's a sad tale about the dangers of trust. While we should be able to our horse friends, it seems the "Buyer Beware" tag always apllies to the purchase of a horse.
Lemons
A friend of mine sold her crap car last Saturday, and it had a lemon title. She didn't know it had a lemon title when she bought it, which makes me think poorly of the person who sold her the car. At least be upfront about what you're selling; let someone knowingly purchase the lemon if they believe they can handle it, but letting someone buy it from you and then discover the issue is a shite thing to do.
It occurred to me that the same sort of thing happened to me- purchasing something and only after receiving the title, do you realize that it has a "defect" that makes it challenging to sell to those in the know.
Rocky has a "lemon" title, and I didn't know until I had received his registration papers. Let's back up for a second to explain what happened.
On February 8 2009, my first horse, Honey, died. It was tragic and awful but that story should be saved for a different day. Suffice to say that I was devastated for so many reasons, one of which was that I no longer had a horse in my life. I felt lost and lonely for the void that being horseless caused. Normally when I am in a bad mood of some sort, I can go to the barn and by the time I leave, I feel much better. Horses have a way of doing that for me.
By mid March I commenced my search for a new horse. I was still grieving the loss of Honey, but I knew that getting a new horse would help me through this difficult time. I tried out a horse that I found online, and she ended up bolting with me across a field with large patches of ice. She was a very different animal than her ad and owner had promised, and I left her with them. My mom suggested that I ask Rite (name changed) if she had any horses available.
Between the ages of 12-14, I took riding lessons from Rite. She also gave Honey 3 months of additional training right after I had purchased her. Rite liked to take in undernourished and ill trained horses to bring them to their full health, train up, and resell to a good owner. I knew Rite's training methods and knew that I would feel most comfortable on a horse that had been trained by her, and not have to guess at what a stranger's horse would know.
I sent Rite a letter, briefly explaining that I had lost Honey but was looking for another horse. I outlined the characteristics I was hoping for and asked if she had any horses in for training that were close to being ready to go, or if she knew of anyone selling a horse with my criteria in mind. My criteria (as best I can remember):
-Between 14.1 and 15.2 hh, I wasn't looking for a tall horse-Able to walk, trot, and canter safely-Road and trail safe-Friendly, likes people-Between 5 and 15 years old-Around $1000, I didn't have much more than that
And I think that was it. I told her that I can work on ground manners pretty well so if things aren't perfect there, that's fine. Rite emailed me back asking if I remembered a colt that her mare had dropped in 2006.
I had taken riding lessons on that mare- Amber- and while she didn't have the prettiest face in the world, she was smart and tried hard. She was a buckskin Quarter horse. The stallion was also one of Rite's horses, a gorgeous palomino Quarter horse named Checkers that I had admired for years. He was a sweet horse, loved attention, and as I said, was beautiful.
The colt I had gotten to meet when he was about a month and a half old. He was black with white feet,
already showing off his round Quarter horse butt.
A friend of mine sold her crap car last Saturday, and it had a lemon title. She didn't know it had a lemon title when she bought it, which makes me think poorly of the person who sold her the car. At least be upfront about what you're selling; let someone knowingly purchase the lemon if they believe they can handle it, but letting someone buy it from you and then discover the issue is a shite thing to do.
It occurred to me that the same sort of thing happened to me- purchasing something and only after receiving the title, do you realize that it has a "defect" that makes it challenging to sell to those in the know.
Rocky has a "lemon" title, and I didn't know until I had received his registration papers. Let's back up for a second to explain what happened.
On February 8 2009, my first horse, Honey, died. It was tragic and awful but that story should be saved for a different day. Suffice to say that I was devastated for so many reasons, one of which was that I no longer had a horse in my life. I felt lost and lonely for the void that being horseless caused. Normally when I am in a bad mood of some sort, I can go to the barn and by the time I leave, I feel much better. Horses have a way of doing that for me.
By mid March I commenced my search for a new horse. I was still grieving the loss of Honey, but I knew that getting a new horse would help me through this difficult time. I tried out a horse that I found online, and she ended up bolting with me across a field with large patches of ice. She was a very different animal than her ad and owner had promised, and I left her with them. My mom suggested that I ask Rite (name changed) if she had any horses available.
Between the ages of 12-14, I took riding lessons from Rite. She also gave Honey 3 months of additional training right after I had purchased her. Rite liked to take in undernourished and ill trained horses to bring them to their full health, train up, and resell to a good owner. I knew Rite's training methods and knew that I would feel most comfortable on a horse that had been trained by her, and not have to guess at what a stranger's horse would know.
I sent Rite a letter, briefly explaining that I had lost Honey but was looking for another horse. I outlined the characteristics I was hoping for and asked if she had any horses in for training that were close to being ready to go, or if she knew of anyone selling a horse with my criteria in mind. My criteria (as best I can remember):
-Between 14.1 and 15.2 hh, I wasn't looking for a tall horse-Able to walk, trot, and canter safely-Road and trail safe-Friendly, likes people-Between 5 and 15 years old-Around $1000, I didn't have much more than that
And I think that was it. I told her that I can work on ground manners pretty well so if things aren't perfect there, that's fine. Rite emailed me back asking if I remembered a colt that her mare had dropped in 2006.
I had taken riding lessons on that mare- Amber- and while she didn't have the prettiest face in the world, she was smart and tried hard. She was a buckskin Quarter horse. The stallion was also one of Rite's horses, a gorgeous palomino Quarter horse named Checkers that I had admired for years. He was a sweet horse, loved attention, and as I said, was beautiful.
The colt I had gotten to meet when he was about a month and a half old. He was black with white feet,
already showing off his round Quarter horse butt.
I feel her pain. My experience wasn't a genetic one, it was a behavior one. I was getting a horse in college, on my own. Hadn't owned a horse since my parents sold my mare when I was 13. The asst barn manager at the University's horse farm told me he had the perfect horse for me - he'd put 60 days on him himself as a tune up. "Great colt," he kept saying. I wanted something I could just ride on the trails and maybe do some WP at local horse shows. So I went out and tried Charlie. He was easy going, had no problems. Had really pretty movement. Looking back, I should've gone out there and rode him a couple times, but I was so excited my parents had finally agreed to get me a horse again, plus I was doing this (uneducated) on my own, I trusted the opinion of the asst bm, so I bought him. Got him back at the student barn, rode him for the first time, and he reared while I was riding him - I fell off (purposely) because I thought he was going to flip on top of me. Later that week the asst barn mgr came out to trim Charlie for me. Charlie started acting up while he was trimming him - rearing again. His response: "Oh he came to me with that rearing problem." Well that was news to me. He had never mentioned it, the owners never mentioned it (even though I specifically asked if he had any vices). I eventually broke Charlie of "that rearing problem" but he never could cut it as an arena horse. He was a rank SOB in the arena - ducking at the canter, crow hopping, etc. Charlie's the reason I started riding with a helmet on - never had growing up because "Western people don't". He loved the trails though, so I sold him as an exclusive trail horse only.
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is having an N/H horse isn't keeping me up at night. I knew before I got him (he was a gift) that he had HYPP so I researched how to care for him accordingly. He's never had an attack that I, or anyone else, know of and so far I don't see any reason to treat him like a ticking time bomb. I may eat my words later, but for now I'm not worried.
ReplyDeleteMy experience was similar, when I was around 9 and too big for my lovely, safe, bombproof pony we tried out a very pretty, 13.2hh grey welsh cob cross gelding. We were told he was a perfect gentleman, a schoolmaster and completely suitable for novices. In our week of trialing he bolted round the school with me and threw me off, he also bolted when hacking with one of my Mum's experienced horsie friends, bucking, trying to wrench the reins from her hands and even tanking straight over a road.
ReplyDelete...and then there was the sweet, friendly welsh mare who turned out to have been kept on painkillers so we didn't notice her bad limp... and who's legs were so bad the vet thought she was in her 30s (she was papered as being 14)
Thankfully, even though we were total horsie noobs, we were able to pick up on these problems before actually purchasing either of the horses in question. Although it pains me how willingly people will skip over a horses flaws... especially very serious ones, just to sell the horse on. Us horse people should stick together!
I'm curious if the writer ever talked to "Rite" about it and what was said?
ReplyDeleteSnarl. That story reads like an intro to a FDOTH rant. Why would anyone breed an HYPP horse? And sell it to a trusting FRIEND with no warning.
ReplyDeleteLast week we read about breeding for color if the sources are sound and well built. This sounds like desire to breed for good looks damn the consequences.
My heart goes out to owners who love a horse and know it is a time bomb. Whether they knowlingly took this on or got saddled with it unknowlingly from a friend.
Someone I know tried to sell me a N/H appy mare...she would not have her tested, I walked away. Someone else I know got her temporarily, had her tested...and she was N/H. In hindsight, I really think the first person knew she was positive and even had seizures..I remember her asking me about why she got so "sick" after her vaccinations (and yes, that can cause seizures). Last I heard the mare ended up as a pasture pet via a third person..but knowing the first person now as well as I do (not as a friend) she probably sent the mare to auction.
ReplyDeleteHello! Thank you all for your kind thoughts, so far I've been lucky and Rocky has been symptom free. I want to respond to the question of my conversation with Rite about Rocky's status, but I want to say more than might easily fit into a "Comments" box. Plus, I think it makes a good blog post- so that's what I'm going to do! If you're interested, you can find it (as soon as I get it up!) at www.punkskidrock.blogspot.com .
ReplyDeleteJanet, thank you for posting my story! I'm so excited you chose to feature me as one of your Mouthy Mondays!
Good luck with Rocky. Hope he stays symptom free.
ReplyDeleteThis story has raised my blood pressure a lot ! What a stinker the person who sold you this horse is ! Not only did she sell you a horse that she knew was HYPP N/H but she actually bred the damn horse from her own HYPP N/H horse ! Aaaaaaaaarrgh!!!!!!!!!!!.
ReplyDeleteOver here in the UK we have Arabs that carry Lavender Foal Syndrome which they are busily trying to breed out & also we have a genetic defect appear in Fell ponies called Fell Fading Syndrome which means that the foal gradually dies. Sadly although the fell pony society are trying to avoid breeding from Fells who carry this defect it has recently turned up in Dales ponies, goodness knows how unless there has been some cross breeding.Such a damn shame as both breeds are scarce & this means that the gene pool will shrink if you're unable to breed from some of these ponies.
I was in a position to purchase a 2004 registered paint mare with double impressive breeding. The breeder said she was NN, I asked for the papers and was told she "could not find them". I personally pulled mane hair and sent in for the test. Yes, she is NN. I went ahead and bought her for a song. She is a lovely horse, but I won't breed her because she has all the other Impressive faults: tiny feet, too much muscle for her size. Riding her is like riding on a couch. And she can be grumpy. The world does not need more Impressive line horses regardless of HYPP status.
ReplyDeleteI've been around countless (I repeat, countless) Impressive bred horses. I've found them to be quiet, easy to break, if a bit lazy and stubborn in the beginning. All colors, all sizes, a few with Impressive a couple generations OFF the papers that I still verified via pleasant conversation with AQHA staff that the horse really was N/N before I ever put training into it. Trail ride, show, ranch work, rail work.
ReplyDeleteThe best of all of them was a 13 year old mare, untested until she came through our barn as an 11 year old. I pulled hair and sent it in, thinking she looked way too "built" for something that had been in someone's backyard for 3 years. Sure enough, N/H. She's never had an attack with the current owner. They manage her well, she's on turnout 95% of the time, they've paid attention to her diet, and hauling/showing locally doesn't stress her. The real kicker to the story is, in checking her history with AQHA, the orignal owner/breeder, bred her back to his Impressive-bred stallion, without ever checking or filing her status with AQHA. This was a year or 2 before the requirement for testing came into play. Can't fix stupid, I guess. Some people just can't be made to care.
Just because I tend to be a "what is" type of person rather than a "what if" type of person, I'd like to pose a question...everybody's reaction to HYPP horses is always "They could have a siezure and die...or hurt someone...or something". If the person that sold you this horse had told you that this horse had coliced several times...would you pass on buying the horse? Question I've always wanted answered...and knowing horse insurance would help somewhat with this if they don't charge much higher or even ANY higher rates for HYPP horses...what is the REAL death rate for HYPP horses...from an HYPP attack itself, compared to colic...accidents...other category? I'm really curious about the facts...not the emotion (as horrid as it would be to lose a horse from either HYPP or colic...or accident or even old age...just losing them is heartbreaking period).
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, An insurance company won't sell you colic coverage for a horse that has coliced.
ReplyDeleteAs for HYPP - if you are riding the horse and they have an attack,you could be bddly hurt.
That being said, the main issue is continuing to breed horses with this genetic fault. If you ahve an N/H horse and take the precations, as long as you don't breed, the risk is yours to carry.
Meanwhile, why propogate hroses with such small feet and over muscling? This sin't natural. This is breeding humans selected. We should cut it out.
Forgive my bit of rant.
deedee sonnyduo@yahoo.com, OF COURSE we shouldn't be breeding any more N/H horses (or horses carrying ANY known genetic problems). But that wasn't the question. The question was what is the likelihood of an N/H horse having an attack -- and if equine insurance can be written/is affordable for an N/H horse.
ReplyDeleteridgerider, you are right and I was distracted.
ReplyDeleteAout breeding, just a general frustration.
This is a really interesting topic. I've been looking extensively at stallions lately, and I see them split in two ways. I always look at bloodlines and consider what potential genetic diseases a given horse could carry based on those bloodlines and what we know about the origin of some of the diseases. The two groups I find: horses that are listed at N/N for all the diseases (because they should inform potential mare owners and it is a selling point for their stallion), and horses who appear to not have been tested (ie. they don't list the status of any test results on their website eventhough, say, their stallion has Poco Bueno 11 times in his pedigree). I suspect that many of those horses have been tested, but they will purposefully not divulge the test results because they are likely positive. I am awaiting a respones back from one such stallion owner. Maybe those owners are ignorant, or maybe they are hoping that potential mare owners are ignorant, and I say shame on them for knowing and keeping it secret. I found a stallion who listed on his website that he was HERDA N/+. Now, it wasn't in huge letters, but it was on there for anyone looking. And now as a mare owner, it is up to the risk you are taking and that you will be contributing to keeping known genetic disease in the population if you breed your mare to him. I think they should not be breeding a stallion like that, but some people may think the stallions other qualities outway the risk of passing on the recessive gene. If the mare is N/N, disease will never be evident. After at first being dismayed that a known carrier was still a stallion, I got over it and now respect that stallion owner for finding out and reporting it anyway...it is always better to know. All the rest who dont' report it and know...or who will not have their horse tested because they suspect...shame on you! And I just wanted to make an aside that I'm unsure about the AQHA registration requirements for the status of those other diseases.
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ReplyDelete