tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post4992685896624579304..comments2024-01-03T03:28:48.980-07:00Comments on mugwump Chronicles: Sometimes We All Could Use a Little Dale CarnegieMugwumphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01487540636265322556noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-11323920895732858012008-12-31T15:36:00.000-07:002008-12-31T15:36:00.000-07:00>>What have your *students* won or what have...>>What have your *students* won or what have they done?<BR/><BR/>it is one thing to know (or not) how to do something, it is another altogether to teach that to someone else. <<<BR/><BR/>Absolutely. And sometimes there's a real discrepancy...I can TEACH better than I can DO. I have always been that way. I am simply not a natural athlete, so I have turned out some riders who were FAR more talented than I will ever be. I had the eye for other people's riding, and I could explain in simple terms. Didn't mean I could do it myself. To this day, the inner trainer screams at me nonstop about my own riding. I know what I do wrong but I can't always get the message from brain to body, especially in that 2 seconds where I realize something is seriously going wrong. Sometimes I hit the ground before the message goes to my body to correct the situation that is about to plant me there. It's annoying.verylargecolthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18035418539530230889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-5563150342125937262008-12-30T11:24:00.000-07:002008-12-30T11:24:00.000-07:00LOL! This will be a test for our marriage, that's ...LOL! This will be a test for our marriage, that's for sure! If he can last through me sitting my round self in a lawn chair while he tries to teach my little darling some manners, lol, we can make it through anything! *He's done alright w/her so far-he halter broke her and got her to load in the trailer this w/end when she was absolutely convinced there was no reason for her to go in the trailer. I guess we hadn't heard about the monsters that live in stock trailers that eat sorrel fillies....<BR/>I have two nice older horses, one that's finished, and another that needs more pattern work to be solid. I'm hoping by maybe next fall I can get back to at least just riding, and not take a 2yr hiatus like I did after the last baby!barrelracer20xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03696922169023358714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-51029114941136744232008-12-30T10:12:00.000-07:002008-12-30T10:12:00.000-07:00barrelracer, as I've gotten older and gotten away ...barrelracer, as I've gotten older and gotten away from the mindset I had when I was competing at reining and cutting (you know, the three year old futurity mindset) I have come to the realization that thirty days of riding at three, ninety days at four, and six months at five, with turnout in a big pasture in between, is my ideal program. At six the horse becomes a regular using horse. They really do stay sound, and are mentally good, too, when trained this way. But I am training (or used to) rope horses for my own pleasure, and don't have to fit into anyone's system. My old reining and cutting buddies would be aghast at this program. <BR/><BR/>Its so funny, I started riding again when my little boy started riding, just like you, and all my riding since has been with him. No, I never went back to competing...right now we ride the trails together and I'm loving that. Who knows what the future holds.... I'd have my husband start your filly under your watchful eye, if it was me. Always hoping this didn't lead to divorce....(I'm kidding).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-83111524682090398262008-12-30T09:56:00.000-07:002008-12-30T09:56:00.000-07:00::SIGH:: LOL-thank you for the good advice ladies,...::SIGH:: <BR/>LOL-thank you for the good advice ladies, and for the congratulations on our new little girl. After our son (now 3 yrs old) was born, I didn't ride for almost 2 years...just got back into the swing of things earlier this summer. My husband said he's up for doing the basics with her, getting her started well enough under saddle that she should be ready when ever I am. He's said it's up to me, but I feel alot better knowing that my own personal trainer will start her right here at home, where I can watch all that he does with her. We've had a few offers from other folks to take her and start her, but I just couldn't do it. <BR/>Our little boy started riding quite a bit this summer, so I didn't go as much and as often as I could've, mainly so that he could have a good time and actually learn how to ride...the few times I did get to go just made me want to go more, lol. Just as my new barrel horse and I were starting to click, we found out about our new baby! Talk about timing, lol! Anyway, thank you for setting my mind a little more at ease-I've had a few *friends* that have marveled at the fact that my filly is almost 3 and isn't even broke to ride yet....I suppose I'm an abomination to them, but, hey--I bet my horse will be sound longer than theirs are!! :pbarrelracer20xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03696922169023358714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-7013185652787110922008-12-30T09:13:00.000-07:002008-12-30T09:13:00.000-07:00barrelracer--I just have to say that I agree with ...barrelracer--I just have to say that I agree with mugwump. I'd have someone I trusted start your filly. I had the same experience mugwump did. When my little boy was born he became my whole world and I didn't do much with my horses for years. I had one colt that I had put six months riding on, and he got farmed out to others for the next few years. If your filly gets a good start as a three year (thirty good days) you can pick her back up later and it should work well. The horse I bought in college was five years old, and had had thirty days as a three year old and no other riding. He gave me no problems in training, remembered what he'd learned as a three, and went on to stay sound until he died in his late thirties (and yes, I owned him the whole time). Congratulations on your baby!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-63790304108919224582008-12-30T08:38:00.000-07:002008-12-30T08:38:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.jacksonsgrrlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09702324347419665816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-7095517666541170602008-12-30T08:31:00.000-07:002008-12-30T08:31:00.000-07:00barrelracer- Now you know why I've become an "armc...barrelracer- Now you know why I've become an "armchair trainer". It's a tough call. IF I had someone I knew could start a colt the way I want I would get my horse started. Congratulations on your baby! Anyway, I would feel better if my young horse had the basics, especially if I had a baby coming. When my daughter was born she became my whole world. Still is in many ways and she's seventeen. It took me awhile to get back to thinking my horses were all that important. If I had a promising horse I would get a good start on her, even if somebody else does it, and then feel free to lose myself in my child. Your horse will be sound and ready for you when you are ready to dive back in.<BR/>Personally, when it comes to finishing a horse I don't want anybody else on board. But I wouldn't want to wait too long to get her started.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-50677371240135967852008-12-30T08:28:00.000-07:002008-12-30T08:28:00.000-07:00Very interesting post, I quite enjoyed it! I am a ...Very interesting post, I quite enjoyed it! I am a new blogger and am enjoying the experience! Do you have any sites or recommend any reading for getting my horse off of his forehand and getting impulsion from behind both while lungeing and while riding? I have a green AngloArab and am not a trainer! (But I guess I am now;) so I am working hard get his headset which I know comes from behind....thanks for any advice you may have!jacksonsgrrlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09702324347419665816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-76651550953433456212008-12-29T22:37:00.000-07:002008-12-29T22:37:00.000-07:00*O/T--Miss Mugwump...I need an opinion on somethin...*O/T--<BR/>Miss Mugwump...I need an opinion on something...an unbiased opinion.<BR/>I have a really nice filly that's coming 3 in April. She's halter broke, knows how to pick up her feet, etc.,has her basics. Never really been messed with, just been a horse. Ate and pooped for the most part, lol. She's Hard Twist on the bottom, Bugs Alive in 75 on top. My original plans for her were to try and aim her toward the Ft. Smith barrel futurity her 4yr old year....and here in lies my dilemma. I didn't want to push her, so I've put off any sort of under saddle training at all. She's good sized, good minded, everything a prospect should be. I found out in August that I was pregnant, so there's not going to be much riding for me in the near future, lol, not till maybe the middle of this coming summer anyway. I know she's really talented, just by watching her, and knowing her dam and her sire. I wanted to be the one to start her from the ground up, but it's not going to be happening that way...should I let someone else get the basics done and pick up where they leave off when I'm ready, or just let her hang out until I'm ready to do it all? I'm kinda over the futurity idea, unless I wanted someone else to start her on the pattern and haul her to finish her enough. I think it would break my heart to see someone else taking her through the pattern....if you were in my boots and she was a cow horse prospect, which way would you go with her??? I have all the faith in the world that she can make an awesome horse, not just a good barrel horse. I've moved past the futurity idea for the most part because I'd really like to see her have a long career as a good all around horse, not just a 2 or 3 yr career as a barrel horse b/c she breaks down from too much too soon.barrelracer20xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03696922169023358714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-60179549168282463752008-12-29T22:26:00.000-07:002008-12-29T22:26:00.000-07:00"big wonking bit"...The best broke horse I ever ha..."big wonking bit"...<BR/>The best broke horse I ever had could do amazing things whether he had my pretty Garcia spade bit in his mouth or was wearing his girly purple rope halter, lol. With the spade bit, I could pick my hand up, and he would immediately break at the poll, and collect-just by me picking my hand up. *He also LOVED to roll the copper roller...incessantly!* LOL to the point that he used to drive the riders around us crazy!!<BR/>Draw reins--not a fan. I see these *barrel racers* who's horses are completely dependent on them. Well, either draw reins or a tie-down. I use a tie-down on my finished barrel horse when we're making a competition run, just to give him a little more balance coming out of his turns. Otherwise, he doesn't wear one. It makes me sick to see 3 and 4 year olds doing exhibition runs before jackpots with a full set of draw reins....I understand their purpose, but by the time the horse is finished, they should be done with the draw reins. What kills me is the "finished" horses that are supposed to be open-caliber horses that are run in draw reins...I hate it. The only time I've ever had a *crazy* barrel horse was back in high school. I bought him as a make over type project, hoping to fix some of his issues. Unbeknownst to me, he'd never been around the barrels w/out draw reins. He could barely pick up a lead if he couldn't push against your hands, he had become so dependent on that pressure. He found a home as a happy go lucky trail horse--he didn't like barrels anymore. <BR/>Anywho--the gal at the stable should probably try and look at it from the trainer's perspective if she can. If it was me, I'd try to go to some of the other local area barns and see how the other trainers treat the horses/students. Try to make a comparison as to how some things should and shouldn't be done. Just my opinion though...barrelracer20xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03696922169023358714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-69739195922011282742008-12-29T17:26:00.000-07:002008-12-29T17:26:00.000-07:00Well handled. I'm not a huge fan of yanking horses...Well handled. I'm not a <I>huge</I> fan of yanking horses around, unless they absolutely need it. A big grade filly I work with at my rescue does act up sometimes, I learned to just make a loud noise to get a horse to stop something, and it works famously for me. Rarely do I yank down on her halter. That's the one bit of the blog I could relate to! But I have seen a lot of trainers train, and after a while you can pick out the cocky-don't-really-known-what-they're-doing trainers from the legitimate ones.Dressagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04849960430806754249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-87671457667598972008-12-28T20:25:00.000-07:002008-12-28T20:25:00.000-07:00fugly and mugwump both... dale 'd be proud of both...fugly and mugwump both... dale 'd be proud of both of you.. .for asking the ??? and being so tactful :) yikes more damaged horses and riders both from "trainers" that really arent<BR/><BR/>happy trails all<BR/>gpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-82682991841861345472008-12-28T15:42:00.000-07:002008-12-28T15:42:00.000-07:00NagonMom"Assessing a trainer by his/her trained ho...NagonMom<BR/>"Assessing a trainer by his/her trained horses is the best standard."<BR/><BR/>Unless he's just bought them recently, and hasn't had a chance to screw them up yet.<BR/>I agree, as long as the trainer has several YEARS of trained horses to show you.<BR/><BR/>Happened to me:(GoLightlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18283690734019490983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-89706540720159542232008-12-28T14:12:00.000-07:002008-12-28T14:12:00.000-07:00Because the individual in question is both a train...Because the individual in question is both a trainer and a teacher I'd add one more question to the list:<BR/><BR/>What have your *students* won or what have they done?<BR/><BR/>it is one thing to know (or not) how to do something, it is another altogether to teach that to someone else. Even if the individual in question was an outstanding trainer, if s/he cannot impart that knowledge to others, her teaching is useless.Hollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17685436243608973979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-4662182292940622532008-12-28T13:45:00.000-07:002008-12-28T13:45:00.000-07:00All novice riders are herd animals. Love it. And m...All novice riders are herd animals. Love it. And most "horse people" are self proclaimed experts on all horse related aspects, nutrition, training, innate equine social behavior, you name it. As a novice, it is hard to tell who knows anything real, and who is making it up, or repeating what they heard at a clinic. A large grain of salt is crucial. And a skeptical mind. Assessing a trainer by his/her trained horses is the best standard.Nagonmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11458275102536540222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-53679072584693493662008-12-28T09:36:00.000-07:002008-12-28T09:36:00.000-07:00Mugwump, you hit the nail on the head. This woman ...Mugwump, you hit the nail on the head. This woman who wrote the email says some things that to me brand her as a (probably) not terribly experienced English rider with a gentle horse. She might (perhaps) see any competent reined cowhorse trainer, or cutting trainer, or rope horse trainer as cruel, because all of them will routinely use spurs, none of these disciplines can be done (in their finished form) in anything other than a shanked bit of some kind, and many of these folks don't do an inordinate amount of ground work before getting on the horse. And by the way, many people who do all this ground work are simply afraid to get on and don't have the skills to ride a colt if he offers anything other than perfect compliance. They justify this as better for the horse, but in my opinion, it is not at all better for the horse, just safer for the not-competent rider. Anyway, to get back to my main point, a competent trainer might look just as cruel to your email complainer as an ignorant jerk of a wanna be trainer. That said, as I know you know, many competent trainers are cruel, even to the degree of bloody sides and mouths. I've seen it; you've seen it. Its part of the reason I quit competing, and it is in part the reason you gave for starting your blog. I have sincere doubts that a person can win at the high levels in reined cowhorse (and most other events) without being in some ways abusive to the horse. I used to show cutting horses with Tom Dorrance's wife; she had a nice, very correct mare who had never bveen abused (you can imagine). She could only win at the lower cutting club levels. The mare worked as a cutting horse should, but as you know, the ones who win at the high levels do a lot of extra fancy stuff they don't really "need" to do to hold a cow, and guess how they are taught to do this? I know you know. Its a conundrum, and as you've already pointed out, sorting through it is part of the purpose of your blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-20528724749058544092008-12-28T08:49:00.000-07:002008-12-28T08:49:00.000-07:00Another thought on cutters in draw reins....it cou...Another thought on cutters in draw reins....it could cause a truly monumental train wreck!<BR/>cdncowgirl- I see your point and then some. Let somebody go to one little clinic and figure out some body language and Oh My, you've got a trainer.<BR/>I have spent my life dealing with that mind set. On the flip side of the coin, I also worked in a field where you never admitted using ANY on-the-ground philosophies, much less let anyone see you using a round pen for anything other than working a cow.<BR/>So I try to balance it. My list of questions is one that I think should be used. It's also one a trainer should probably ask herself before she gets too righteous.<BR/>I also understand how upset this woman could be if she's watching some really bad stuff....but like Laura pointed out, if she's at a barn watching an uppper level trainer work it could look really cruel simply because she doesn't understand what's going on. Which is why I suggested looking for spur marksand bloody mouths. The two things that really set me off.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-9187704943005091652008-12-28T00:02:00.000-07:002008-12-28T00:02:00.000-07:00That is what bugs me the most about some cutters i...That is what bugs me the most about some cutters in todays world. My mare that I had was extremly broke in the face and broke to just about anything. My new horse on the other hand isn't. He is 10 and doesn't know how to flex or move different parts of his body seperate from the rest of his body. He is stiff as a board. I am now doing lots of bending exercises and getting him to 2 track. Its amazing what he doesn't know! One day I was working him on a cow and I went to lightly bump his nose to the cow because he was looking the other way, and instead of looking in the direction that I bumped him, he moved his butt away from the cow...so then that created a whole new problem, so now when I am going across the pen(and my timeing is right! LOL)I lift up and forward with my hand and bump him with the cow side leg...that has made a huge difference! He bends his body away from the cow and it gets his head toward the cow. But the only reason that he is doing that now is because I have done quite a bit of work teaching him how to BEND. This horse was(in my opnion)never taught "How" to lope or trot. He swings those legs around wildly and does nothing but go really fast! It seems to me that the trainer just got on him and let him go, not caring what he was doing, just as long as he worked the cow good...and he can do some pretty darn cool things on a cow! <BR/> <BR/>As for draw reins on cutters....I have never seen them used before on cutters. Headsetters, yes. And I cannot STAND those things. My trainer uses draw reins on his cow horses, but I certainly don't see him use them very much because he said that they will get a horse heavy on the bridle and if used too much, they will get the horse loping on the front end.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-30370648481454462242008-12-27T23:43:00.000-07:002008-12-27T23:43:00.000-07:00Just throwing this out there but - what about the ...Just throwing this out there but - what about the chance that the letter writer is just over-reacting? I know of a few people who think they know oh so much about horses but are really just complete beginners. Just because you've owned/ridden for years doesn't mean your skill level/knowledge has grown.<BR/>Is it possible that she (?) doesn't know much about spurs, draw reins or "big ass bits"?<BR/>To the uninformed a spade bit would be pretty dramatic.<BR/>We have animal rights groups trying to make trouble for our barrel racing club over riders wearing spurs.<BR/>As for the draw reins, if she used them and didn't like the results maybe SHE was the one using them incorrectly.<BR/>Remember we're hearing one side of the story, with little to no information about how knowledgable the source of the info is.cdncowgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09055181472294995601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-73946065447884223102008-12-27T23:28:00.000-07:002008-12-27T23:28:00.000-07:00AND, the only times I've used draw reins is when I...AND, the only times I've used draw reins is when I'm trying to get a horse to engage his rear end and work more "round", not keep his head down. If transitions don't work, if half halts don't work, working uphills, ect, if all else fails, I'll try draw reins. <BR/><BR/>It's worked on some, not on others. If it doesn't work to try and engage them with your legs and half halt them to get more collection, I might try draw reins.2toads2luvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13735592319606699873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-24555863413102913822008-12-27T23:07:00.000-07:002008-12-27T23:07:00.000-07:00I just want to say that first, I think ANY bit can...I just want to say that first, I think ANY bit can be gentle or harsh. It all depends on the hands holding the other end of the reins.<BR/><BR/>I've seen riders using some really nasty bits, but riding like they had reins made of a single thread. This was probably 100 years ago... long enough that I don't remember where or who, and I wasn't smart enough to question the type of bit, just impressed by the lightness of the riders hands.<BR/><BR/>Conversely, I've seen idiots with an eggbutt snaffle raise their arms straight up in the air and start see-sawing like their life depended on it.<BR/><BR/>Either way, the rider has GOT to understand bits and bitting principles. I think any trainer, english or western, who's worth their salt will take the time to explain how a bit works, the mechanics behind it, and the uses of it.<BR/><BR/>And hello, draw reins as the primary and only rein? I've ridden with draw reins, only as a secondary aid. I don't know a lot of western riders who are super comfortable with double reins, but if you're going to ride with draw reins, you'd better figure it out.2toads2luvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13735592319606699873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-60344510238329757872008-12-27T20:14:00.000-07:002008-12-27T20:14:00.000-07:00Mugwump, I never knew cutters to use draw reins......Mugwump, I never knew cutters to use draw reins...yes, some would use a running martingale. Doesn't mean no cutter ever used draw reins...I just didn't see it. Reason? In my opinion, because cutters don't (in general) try to teach horses to be "broke in the face". I've ridden many cutters who had won prestigious awards who could not/would not give their heads at all. Its a different method of training. That is, the old school "Texas style" version of training cutting horses. You know, they could cut a cow, and that was their one skill. I told you the story of the kid who asked the famous cutting horse trainer why his horse was loping in the wrong lead. Famous trainer (truly famous)relied "I don't give a F-- what lead he lopes in." And then the horse won the cutting. This is a true story and an illustration of the point of view that would find draw reins and what they can do irrelevant. And by the way, I take the middle road. I've used a method of checking up that is much like draw reins, though I don't like draw reins and don't use them, and I want my horses a lot broker in the face than these traditional cutters I'm talking about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-10172762161521731292008-12-27T20:09:00.000-07:002008-12-27T20:09:00.000-07:00I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with a spade...I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with a spade bit. But they're pretty big wonking bits. I watched a trainer (not the Big K)ride his horse in a spade bit and draw reins right before the NRCHA Worlds. It was the most horrifying thing I've ever watched in my life. She skunked him at the World Show, so there was a little satisfaction.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-23325148792961458872008-12-27T20:01:00.000-07:002008-12-27T20:01:00.000-07:00fugs-I agree, I think people write you to vent.And...fugs-I agree, I think people write you to vent.And venting is a good thing when it's got a purpose, your blog proves that.Hopefully she'll find some value in my response.<BR/> I hadn't thought of that one, if she's bucking up against an established trainer in a barn full of clients it will be a long uphill slog to fight her.<BR/> It was the confusion between the training tools and how they're used that jumped out at me in the letter. It's hard to get people to pay attention when anger jumps track like that.<BR/>Your martingale is a good example. There's nothing wrong with it, but put it into the wrong hands and it's a whole new game.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-9971449249569204192008-12-27T19:57:00.000-07:002008-12-27T19:57:00.000-07:00Yup, just draw reins, no snaffle rein. I have als...Yup, just draw reins, no snaffle rein. I have also seen people riding in a double bridle with draw reins on the curb, and dear lord, talk about rein macrame. <BR/>I wouldn't have the nerve personally, assuming there was ever a horse I felt needed it - and I can't imagine a situation where that'd happen. <BR/><BR/>I could tell you that the 24/7 head tied down/in thing doesn't happen GoLightly, but I'd be lying. One of the sadder colts I ever saw came from a 'breaking yard' like that - he was kept in a surcingle and side reins in the stable, and ridden either in side reins or draw reins. Apparently that was their standard practise, although not normally so extreme. They told me he was rebellious, go figure. Funnily enough, my client didn't buy anything from them. <BR/>I tried reporting them, but this was before the law in the UK changed - had to at the time have clear evidence of physical damage suffering, and he was reasonably well fleshed and shiny enough. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that he ended up with permanent muscle / spinal damage though.FDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01485030894416936129noreply@blogger.com