tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post1926164559553655961..comments2024-01-03T03:28:48.980-07:00Comments on mugwump Chronicles: Training Experiments ContinuedMugwumphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01487540636265322556noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-74660097944424109022011-12-26T09:48:52.873-07:002011-12-26T09:48:52.873-07:00Awesome story! Damn, this means I can't use t...Awesome story! Damn, this means I can't use the "hopefully he'll forget it" excuse anymore! I've been trying to think of ways to train more efficiently and this will definitely helpTravelling Blueberryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05583354210680568561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-5372204050222567892009-07-03T12:39:12.929-06:002009-07-03T12:39:12.929-06:00Triple Star Cowgirl- Well, originally I was trying...Triple Star Cowgirl- Well, originally I was trying to teach her how to handle her horse. She would act like she listened, but then in practice she would just completely ignore everything I told her. I train with pressure and release of pressure. The lady claims to as well, but she never removes the pressure so the horse never really understands what's going on or how to escape the pressure the right way, so she will act out. I have, time and time again, explained this to her. But she just doesn't get it. So you are right. The horse will probably get going for me and understand what I want. But the owner will never be able to handle her or teach her anything new. Consequently, I've dropped this. She has a 2 y/o gelding she wants me to work with now. Babies are such a relief since they have yet to messed up and respond to pressure and release right away. But I probably won't keep training for her simply because she won't retain anything. Most of the owners I work with watch me, ask questions, I answer them. I show them how to do everything their horse is lacking so the horse will respond to them as well as me. But some people just don't want to listen :P. It's frustrating to have someone say they understand and they are going to do something about it, but the next time I come out, they are doing exactly what they shouldn't be doing to get the response they want. I don't want someone in the arena with me unless they are willing to learn and are trying something themselves. Such as teaching the horse to put it's head down from poll pressure... but if they are in the arena, trying to take over the training, interfering with what could have been a successful and stress free training session... Then they aren't very welcome. A lot of people are willing to take direction, but the pushier ones just don't, why they hire a horse trainer when they think they can do it themselves. I don't know x_x. So basically, I would love to get this lady to be more hands on with her horses, but if she won't listen, there isn't much I can do except abandon ship because I don't want to be blamed for her horse's misbehavior.<br /><br />Update: I told the lady I wasn't going to work with the mustang and that she is probably going to be a bolter all her life. She said she wanted to give her a few more weeks, and now she is trying her apparatus with the mustang. Sigh. I think she would be much better off selling the mustang or making her a pasture pet and working with this 2 y/o, or get an older, already trained horse since her horses like to push her around. He's cute, but his conformation isn't the greatest, however, he has a great mind and is relatively fearless. He would be a great trail horse if she goes about this the right way. Though, since she won't listen to me about pressure and release, she is probably going to have a frustrated little horse on her hands unless he is more easy going that I thought. Actually, he's probably going to turn into a biter, he's already nippy and the lady is big for food bribes and treats in general.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-84294007434764467222009-06-30T08:48:50.439-06:002009-06-30T08:48:50.439-06:00Jonas
This is not meant to be rude it will sound t...Jonas<br />This is not meant to be rude it will sound that way but hear me out. <br />I realize you want to prove you can work with that horse but keeping the owner away is the wrong approach that is her horse, if she cant handle the horse after your done, then the job is not done. Again this is not meant to be offensive this is made to make you think it through. <br /><br />The very same reason the owner allows you to tell her she cant be involved in the training of her horse is the very same reason the horse is spoiled. I would never let someone handle my horse little lone train it if they wanted me to stay out of the arena all the time. I hope you consider this in your thought process. I think the success here would be for the owner to learn too. Maybe too much for a young gal to take on but maybe not.Triple Star Cowgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09691551012418287595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-89084737957373072622009-06-30T08:38:50.796-06:002009-06-30T08:38:50.796-06:00I have to tell you I know from personal experience...I have to tell you I know from personal experience that this will work. I wish I could have had my current gelding right from the get go. I knew the people I bought him from and if I had known they were gonna sell him I could have been handling him from day 1. It would have made a huge impact on the obsticles we have had. I raised another horse much the way you are talking, maybe not with the same techniques but from the begining, doing things slow and easy and there was never a question of the bond or a question about leadership. We were an increadable team. I once rode in a costume class bridless with that horse. No one ever realized he had not bridle on because of our costume so they let me do it. I could take off on that horse through the woods with no bridle and ride where ever whenever. You will have a fantastic horse when your done. I think horses and people would be much better off if we could start out this way. Great Job. Now I know that I am not crazy for thinking this is possible.Triple Star Cowgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09691551012418287595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-30397426260364478202009-06-28T17:01:52.941-06:002009-06-28T17:01:52.941-06:00Whoa. First off I want to join all the voices ad...Whoa. First off I want to join all the voices advising Jonas to send that mare and her owner on down the road.<br />Owners who listen but don't hear are bad news. (As opposed to owners who won't listen, who are merely annoying, because they're spotted and then avoided.)<br />Horses that have ingrained dangerous responses are bad news. <br />Put them together, and frankly I don't see how in the world you can possibly create a good outcome.<br /><br />I mean, even if you 'fix' that mare for you, it isn't going to be fixed for her. So what purpose exactly is the training for? <br /><br /><br />I love the idea of 'teach once'. It fits in with the ideas of 'always make what you want to do the easiest option for the horse,' and 'if you have done the previous step correctly, the next will be successful,' both of which I like to try to train by.<br />I think we underestimate horses ability to retain process information sometimes. I read an experiment a while back with flashcards. Horses were shown patterns and when they touched a certain pattern in certain order, they got a food reward. Many of the horses only had to get the pattern correct once before they learnt it and had it correct everytime. They followed up a year later, and most of the horses remembered most of the patterns - including the ones that they had only been shown once or twice. Pretty impressive.FDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01485030894416936129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-50779458780688787662009-06-28T08:53:54.811-06:002009-06-28T08:53:54.811-06:00Wow mugs!
Larry Trocha...thats cool! I don'...Wow mugs! <br />Larry Trocha...thats cool! I don't know him personally but he has been at some of the cuttings when I was showing in Calif. He is a great guy. Thanks for the advice..maybe I will bring her in for an hour a day while she is eating so she can get used to me being around. Thanks for the advice!slippinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-70072679723298110212009-06-28T08:43:40.889-06:002009-06-28T08:43:40.889-06:00slippin - I got some input from my answer guy for ...slippin - I got some input from my answer guy for cutting questions.He seems to be backing my initial instincts, which is this could be a stingy little filly.<br />I got to know Larry through email and buying his tapes when I was first training and working so hard to understand the cowhorse and reining stuff. It turned out he had a Monte Foreman base from waaaay back in the 70's like me, so I really understood his tapes. <br />I accidentally met him on the phone once when I was trying to put a tape package together that I wanted and we had a great conversation.<br />I've asked his advice off and on for probably 15 years now and he always is a help. <br />His are the only training tapes I own BTW (except the 1st one of Martin Blacks on the bridle horse, who I also like) and I still use them.<br /><br />This is what he said about Slippin's filly...<br /><br />Hi Janet,<br /><br />I think you gave this lady excellent advice.<br /><br />I might add, if possible make it so the mare and baby must come into a small pen or stall to eat.<br /><br />There, the lady can at least be in close contact with the baby and little by little she will lose some of her fear.<br /><br />You may also tell her, some of the all-time GREAT cutting horses acted fearful like this.<br /><br />I would take special care with this filly because she maybe a diamond in the ruff.<br /><br />Take care,<br /><br />Larry Trochamugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-59054407151093679722009-06-28T08:34:18.704-06:002009-06-28T08:34:18.704-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-22279425427462385292009-06-28T08:34:14.506-06:002009-06-28T08:34:14.506-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-81930048168458084752009-06-28T07:27:15.096-06:002009-06-28T07:27:15.096-06:00Fascinating.
I have never thought far enough to g...Fascinating. <br />I have never thought far enough to give the "good memory"-thought the full consequence!<br />WOW. How exciting!<br />I love your thoughts here Mugs, and how nice it must be to be able to follow it through - not having to be in a hurry and press on I mean. I hope you keep us posted on this.HorseOfCoursehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15907659164579327290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-37459485143210172192009-06-27T17:41:42.134-06:002009-06-27T17:41:42.134-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-48077408283758022182009-06-27T17:41:36.357-06:002009-06-27T17:41:36.357-06:00Slippin - How's the filly bred?Slippin - How's the filly bred?mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-9993774938312247022009-06-27T17:16:44.569-06:002009-06-27T17:16:44.569-06:00Slippin - If this was a reining prospect I would s...Slippin - If this was a reining prospect I would say don't go there. A reiner needs to be as amiable and social as a pleasure horse since they have to allow the rider to control every movement.<br />But if she's a cutting prospect I would be inclined to be patient. She could be a hot little firecracker. I wouldn't force her to do anything. But as you know, I just corner them and doctor them and worry about the rest of the stuff later.<br />I am not 100% on how you will handle her now, but she will be a lot of horse. Which can be a good thing. <br />I'm going to ask around about this, stay tuned.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-41056042669828289632009-06-27T17:14:30.148-06:002009-06-27T17:14:30.148-06:00Jonas
This baby is not angry, she is just scared a...Jonas<br />This baby is not angry, she is just scared and VERY flighty. I did have a colt out of my mare that would have knock down drag out hissy fits when he didn't get what HE wanted. I was teaching him one time when he was about 7 days old to give to pressure on the halter, he got mad and started running backwards. I wasn't about to let him go because there was pipe fence behind him and if he fell over backwards...he would have killed him self on the fence, so I held on and litterally drug him forward, I know thats not a good thing to do, but I did NOT want him to flip over by the fence. Finally he sulled up on me leaped straight in the air like a pogo stick and flopped down on the ground. I had an "Ah HAH" moment and took advantage of him being down, so I went and put a knee on his neck and a hand on his jowl and the other hand I ran all over his body. I figured, since he is down, I might as well take advantage of it! He started flailing and squealing like a pig! I thought that I hurt him..though I couldn't figure out how because I wasn't putting much pressure on his neck OR head, so as a result, I jumped back thinking something was wrong....well, he jumped up too and gave me that look like, "HAHAHA, I fooled you!" I worked with him a little longer that day and quit on a good note...the next day, I went out and he did the SAME thing to me, but this time when he flopped on the ground, I didn't move off of him...I just kept rubbing him quietly on his shoulders and belly until he quit squirming. ONce he quit and he laid quiet, I let him get up. Before anyone yells at me for doing this the way I did, It was only my second colt that I ever halter broke and I was at my house that had a barn and stalls, so I was able to foal my mare out, so my trainer was an hour away and not able to come and help me...so I was on my own. I learned alot that year and that horse leads just fine now...so I didn't do too bad of a job! LOL...<br />It was funny though when he threw himself on the ground, my land lord was down at the barn feeding and she heard him squealing and she came running around the corner saying,"What happend??? Are you ok??" I laughed and said, "Yes, Im fine...HE doesn't think he is ok...but hes not getting away with anything this time!" LOLslippinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-86696485690165444812009-06-27T11:50:02.458-06:002009-06-27T11:50:02.458-06:00Slippin- I can't wait til I see what Mugs says...Slippin- I can't wait til I see what Mugs says, my first horse was an unbroke pregnant mare (parents make horrible decisions for their kids) and when the baby was born, we had the vet out because the mare hadn't passed the afterbirth. We finally caught her, but she squealed and kicked at the vet even though her mom didn't care at all. Even though she was a gangly little creature she kept trying to hop out of his arms as he petted her and touched her feet... After that day she was impossible to catch. She would jump out of the corral, which was at least four or five feet. When she was small enough, she'd just run under her mom's belly. Luckily mom didn't care about all the commotion (as long as she had some hay). She would approach me too if I sat down. She never was a scared horse, but angry. It was kind of weird. She reacted to every new experience with attitude and anger. When my friend was teaching her to tie, she squealed, pinned her ears and charged the post. It was horrible. She eventually came around abour 4-6 months, I could pet her, and I halterbroke her with either water deprivation or food at the bottom of her trough, I can't remember. I just kept a little bit of water at the bottom so she would put her head in the halter. After a few repetitions she was no problem to catch, just stuck her face in the halter. Hopefully there is a way to get a hold of them younger, in case I ever encounter another baby like her. :PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-71177050934354859752009-06-27T05:09:43.859-06:002009-06-27T05:09:43.859-06:00The "Real" mother is pretty laid back an...The "Real" mother is pretty laid back and easy going. The recipiant mare that had her is also very laid back. When I was trying to work with the baby and it was freaking out, the mare just cocked her leg and had that look like, "I don't know what the big deal is." I think it is very odd that both real mom and recip are pretty laid back. I have sat out in the pasture and the baby will slowly come up to me. She is VERY curious and bold, but geeze if you make one move, shes gone. When I got out to feed in the mornings, she runs around the pasture( I have to go into their pasture to feed some horses). When I stop to feed this one gelding, she runs up to the manure spreader and smells it sees me and acts like she wants to come see me, but as soon as I move to go throw the hay, she takes off. Then when I go to the other side of the pasture to feed the other horses, she is trotting RIGHT behind me...until I get off the mule, shes gone again.slippinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-16744921683379528782009-06-26T22:04:51.155-06:002009-06-26T22:04:51.155-06:00slippin- what's her mother like?slippin- what's her mother like?mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-34825799027265056232009-06-26T21:18:12.938-06:002009-06-26T21:18:12.938-06:00Mugs,
I've been a Lurker for awhile..been busy...Mugs,<br />I've been a Lurker for awhile..been busy showing my horse and getting babies in. I like your thought process on getting in with the horse from the very beginning...usually I like to do that with my own, even though they had a mind of THEIR own! I do have a question for you though....I have a filly that is WILD. Ihave had a halter on her once and didn't even attempt to teach her to give. I mainly just want to get her calm and quiet with me being in the stall WITH her. When I had her in, I would walk in the stall and not do anything, just relax and she would be just about climbing the walls trying to get away from me and that was when she was ONLY 2 weeks old! What is your method or thoughts on getting one to settle down first before you get the halter on her? Thanks!slippinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-10867966388338260222009-06-26T16:12:01.794-06:002009-06-26T16:12:01.794-06:00Mugs, I hope you are keeping notes on this trainin...Mugs, I hope you are keeping notes on this training project. It will make a fascinating book in a few years.<br /><br />You should also be writing up your outside work with Pete, IMO. You're very nice to share them with us in this blog; it seems pretty marketable to me. I'D buy it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-32299441508698400002009-06-26T14:24:23.723-06:002009-06-26T14:24:23.723-06:00Jonas--If you haven't done it, read mugwump...Jonas--If you haven't done it, read mugwump's posts on Captain. I think you can go right to them by clicking on "Captain" on the sidebar. It will really help you to understand what people mean when they talk about what true bolters are like. You know those comments I made about re-training horses that bolt? Those do not apply to confirmed "bolters". They are about colts who try running off in a calculated way as an evasion. Horses that bolt over and over again are in a completely different category. Again, go read those posts on Captain. Honest. They are very good reading. It is an educational story; it will keep you gripped as well. And it will show you exactly how dangerous and impossible to cure a real bolter is.Laura Crumhttp://www.lauracrum.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-43386948394209253282009-06-26T13:46:35.984-06:002009-06-26T13:46:35.984-06:00Not crazy. Fascinating. I like that you make me ...Not crazy. Fascinating. I like that you make me think.Fyyahchildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09680300099730314108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-44038565716889476282009-06-26T12:08:20.149-06:002009-06-26T12:08:20.149-06:00Mugs, I’d like to be a fly on the wall of your bra...Mugs, I’d like to be a fly on the wall of your brain for a day. Your thought processes are fascinating!mocharockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13611067866943319570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-17260852470392862202009-06-26T11:53:33.067-06:002009-06-26T11:53:33.067-06:00:) Yeah, no I expect that as an answer. It'd ...:) Yeah, no I expect that as an answer. It'd be speculation. Afterall, you call it an 'experiement'. I was, as usual, rambling on.autumnblazehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14261052609848445921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-70212945534372796002009-06-26T11:52:38.996-06:002009-06-26T11:52:38.996-06:00Hi Jonas,
I've gotta tell you, my very green a...Hi Jonas,<br />I've gotta tell you, my very green and naive mother has fallen into a bolter. I've told her time and time again to put the damn thing down before he hurts someone to no avail. I've never met a horse that I didn't like, or that I was afraid of......until I met this guy.<br /><br />I'm so glad to hear that you're going to cut this one loose. I never fully understood how ingrained bolting was for some horses, but now I do. That's their answer for EVERYTHING, on the ground AND under saddle. No thinking at all, just bolt as soon as they get any pressure directed at them.<br /><br />Good luck to you, I hope you'll keep us all posted on the other horses that you're working with as well.<br /><br />CharCharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08898020062632310130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-91153040535922491602009-06-26T11:31:21.261-06:002009-06-26T11:31:21.261-06:00Horse and Turbos - I guess I'm trying to prove...Horse and Turbos - I guess I'm trying to prove it doesn't have to be a strong emotion, simply a clear communication. <br />autumnblaze - the people who have my colt on their place can't touch or catch him. They tend to be hand wavy, sudden moving kind of people.<br />So he isn't good for everyone. <br />He also hasn't had all good experiences. He got drugged and neutered. <br />He still loaded into the trailer just fine.<br />Yes genetics play a part. He's out of two foundation bred horses who are either AQHA or NRCHA champions, or both. So he should be level headed and athletic.<br />To me, this means nothing more than he's worth the time I'm spending on him.<br />Most of your questions come under, (shrug) "I don't know, we'll see."mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.com