tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post7255039686205782292..comments2024-01-03T03:28:48.980-07:00Comments on mugwump Chronicles: Rant-oramaMugwumphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01487540636265322556noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-50254457297626841482009-01-03T15:31:00.000-07:002009-01-03T15:31:00.000-07:00I completely agree, which is why I don't lunge ver...I completely agree, which is why I don't lunge very long (or when they're very young--ugh). ;) 15 minutes is plenty of time to begin to build muscle, and in a 60ft. circle, the horse should be okay as long as it isn't hauling ass around the round pen, lol!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-38077544377171470472009-01-03T13:50:00.000-07:002009-01-03T13:50:00.000-07:00dressage in jeans- I always worry about longing or...dressage in jeans- I always worry about longing or round penning a young horse. It's hell on their joints. So to me it's a toss up.<BR/>liri- we're on the same page. My goal is to get my horses to prefer I ride without needing to longe them. Which means they can't be planning on dumping me. I have never said I don't work my horses on the ground, just that my goal is to get on ASAP.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-17612230206883570052009-01-03T12:23:00.000-07:002009-01-03T12:23:00.000-07:00I agree with you for the most part, Mugwump. Befor...I agree with you for the most part, Mugwump. Before I got my current project, I would have agreed with you a lot more! He threw me very badly a couple months ago spooking at something. I now lunge him every time before I get on, and some days I don't get on at all if he is having a spooky day. He gets lunged until he is calm, and then we go for a walk. Most other horses I will still get on and just ride, but he takes some special treatment. He is getting better, though. Yesterday I only had to lunge for five minutes before I got on.Lirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03992719755173487512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-76757815908865156112009-01-03T11:08:00.000-07:002009-01-03T11:08:00.000-07:00I work horses on the ground much like you. I deal ...I work horses on the ground much like you. I deal with it when it becomes a problem for as long as it takes.<BR/>However, I tend to take it a step further with babies. I like to lunge them for a month or so with no rider, and it has nothing to do with obedience and more to do with letting a horse learn to carry himself, and then build the muscle to carry me before I burden him with his own clumsy weight as well as my own. It is a lot /easier/ and more fun to fit a horse up from riding, but I think it is much kinder to allow the horse to do some of it on his own (especially the two-year-olds that have been wandering in a field all their life).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-44412492309131854982009-01-03T10:58:00.000-07:002009-01-03T10:58:00.000-07:00slipping-you work your babies in a very similar wa...slipping-you work your babies in a very similar way that Laura Crum does. Sane and good for the babies. I'm a negligent mess. I just scratch on them a little and ignore them. We halter break when its time for their first trim. (Sorry Ed) My shoer, Ed, is a saint and a good hand so he usually forgives me.<BR/>I worm them by wrestling them down. Now this is not my idea of good horse-handling. It's just laziness and time constraints. I did take the time to halter break my colt and get him willing to be handled before I kicked him out in the 80 acres. I'm glad I did, because now I catch him a time or two every month, lead him around a little and then let him go. It's been easy on us both.<BR/>This summer I'll saddle him a little, do a little ground stuff and get him ready to start this fall. But it will be minimal.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-35120883766727063052009-01-03T10:23:00.000-07:002009-01-03T10:23:00.000-07:00Fyyahchild-I tie in a rope halter with a climbing ...Fyyahchild-I tie in a rope halter with a climbing rope lead rope knotted onto the halter OR a bull snap on a climbing rope clipped to my halter. I also have a knife handy and use a good quick release knot. But you'd be surprised at how long I wait before I untie a fit-throwing horse. (See my Captain story)<BR/> Anon has a good point on making sure your horse won't damage your trailer. I have an old Titan three-horse stock type thing. There is no danger of a horse pulling that trailer apart. None. But I have seen the ties on the Aluminum trailers go popping off in every direction.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-26023293103573403032009-01-03T09:17:00.000-07:002009-01-03T09:17:00.000-07:00AMEN...To everyone! I totally agree that ground w...AMEN...To everyone! I totally agree that ground work can help...but only to a point. I can't believe the things that are sold at where I work that have to do with "ground working" my trainer also does a limited amount of ground work before he gets on a young horse. I am also a believer in not doing much with babies until they are about 2 years old. When they are born, I will mess with them quiet a bit since they are small enough that you can kind of in a lack of better terms, "manhandle" them. When they are a few days old and accepting me to be around them and touch them, I will introduce them to the halter. I will not pull on them, just put it on and let them carry it for a few days(if the space they are in is safe to leave a halter on. then I will put them in a stall and put a lead rope on and do the pull and release thing. once they are leading around fairly well, I turn them out in the pasture and leave them alone for the most part. I will go out there and mess with them, but not daily. Then when they are weaned is when the halter breaking gets more serious. once they lead and they are over being away from mom, I turn them out and leave them until it is time to bring them in to start. (and yes I do go out there and mess with them so they don't forget who I am and when I need to worm or vaccinate.) I just think that babies need to learn to be horses and be left alone for the most part as they are doing their growing up. I have had people tell me I should do some ground work with them, but I have been around those that have been messed with every day since they were born and those horses are spoiled, numb and boy do they put on a show when they don't get their way!! <BR/>Thats just my opinion...great post MugsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-45070797923971098202009-01-03T08:58:00.000-07:002009-01-03T08:58:00.000-07:00Fyyahchild, I would not tie your horse to the trai...Fyyahchild, I would not tie your horse to the trailer when you go back to visit the llamas. I've heard stories of horses ripping off the trailer ties. I would find a big sturdy tree to tie to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-23209831362480013622009-01-03T08:56:00.000-07:002009-01-03T08:56:00.000-07:00Thanks for all the ideas about leading, I will def...Thanks for all the ideas about leading, I will definitely try it.Heilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10115300526657295504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-85253738508844781962009-01-03T06:37:00.000-07:002009-01-03T06:37:00.000-07:00Good rant. I was one of the scaredy cats on the g...Good rant. I was one of the scaredy cats on the ground with my first horse. She was a fire breathing demon! What she really was was a very hot, extremely well trained OTTB. After four months of wasting time on the ground, i finally sucked it up and rode her. She was great fun and taught me so much for many years.<BR/><BR/>Nowadays, ground work sounds boring to me. Plus I can't lunge my horse at all at this point, too tight of a circle for him. I figure when i'm leading him and he tries to blow past me because of a spook, and I make his ass go backwards at a good clip, that's our ground work. <BR/><BR/>I love your blog!Joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00977898784588176802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-58013164290514796242009-01-03T03:21:00.000-07:002009-01-03T03:21:00.000-07:00My trainer was a national champion, he also felt t...My trainer was a national champion, he also felt that the Parellis system, for example, kept people on the ground and made them more and more insecure in order to sell them more courses and gadgets.<BR/><BR/>He told me that he used ground work to get into the saddle, and the rest the work is done from the saddle. It is a tool to get onto the horse and to set manners, more groundwork ruins the rules you set. Instead of the rules being set and moving on, the horse is constantly drilled in those rules and learns ways to get around them, balk them and gets sour to them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-3851028795685171962009-01-03T00:07:00.000-07:002009-01-03T00:07:00.000-07:00Thanks for the advice. I worry too much that a hor...Thanks for the advice. I worry too much that a horse will hurt itself when they act up. I can totally see your point and how letting him graze was like rewarding poor behavoir. I was only thinking about how to calm him down. What do you guys tie in? He's only ever had one little spook while tied before (nothing like yesterday's theatrics) and snapped his lead rope in half. I can just imagine chasing the hysterical freak across the county.<BR/><BR/> Regardless we're going back to that park to practice and we're going on the ride later in the month and if he freaks so be it.Fyyahchildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09680300099730314108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-88801423545042126652009-01-02T23:14:00.000-07:002009-01-02T23:14:00.000-07:00>>But you need to just tie his hienie up and...>>But you need to just tie his hienie up and figure out he isn't going to die.<<<BR/><BR/>LOL did that today with a TB filly who didn't want to tie. She got tied to the beam and got to watch me work with Sly. She had a tantrum. Then she pawed. Then she gave up. Now, apparently, she ties. Voila.fuglyhorseofthedayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14748297520774828265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-3960597483066713532009-01-02T23:12:00.000-07:002009-01-02T23:12:00.000-07:00I don't have many thoughts other than "amen." I'v...I don't have many thoughts other than "amen." I've been saying for years that you can't fix everything on the ground. It just isn't possible. I got criticized for riding the VLC while he was still bad about the girth and picking up his feet, but now he rides AND he stands to be cinched AND he picks up his feet...all at the same time. So if his training was supposed to fail miserably because I didn't do everything in the correct order according to the Internet Police...well, it didn't.<BR/><BR/>I longe a little bit, with greenies. I just want to see if there is a hump in their back. Most of them, if they can buck a few times, they are done and won't do it under saddle. I just read where some crazy idiot on COTH was longeing a horse for an HOUR AND A HALF before riding. An OTTB. OK, first of all, at that point you ARE making it more fit and not quieter, and second of all, you are going to blow its legs all to hell. I mean, what kind of a psycho does that?fuglyhorseofthedayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14748297520774828265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-75368304600646537552009-01-02T23:04:00.000-07:002009-01-02T23:04:00.000-07:00Hmm, I'm with you mugs, my groundworks pretty to t...Hmm, I'm with you mugs, my groundworks pretty to the point and basic. When I started my first 2 y/o, a halter baby, I lunged her a few times, roundpenned her a few times, put a saddle on one day (she didn't care), lunged her with that and then got on. With my next 2 y/o who I raised from a foal I put the saddle on one day, he didn't care, took it off and decided to start him bareback. However with my 3 y/o I struggled through some random groundwork from a clinton anderson book and had a few rodeos when saddling him the first few times (he was untouched and kinda halter trained when I got him), after he was sorta okay with the saddle (usually when he was tired), I decided to skip the whole saddle nonsense and start him bareback. Evidently riding him sacked him out pretty well for the saddle b/c I never had much for issues saddling him after that. I guess I just get on when A)I feel good about it or B) I think I'm going to want to stall forever so I get on to get it over with... One thing I did notice was that with the 3 y/o, he was better and more sensitive about some of the groundwork stuff and that seemed to carry through under saddle. Anyway I find that less groundwork works for me. I don't lunge before I ride either, when your first horse is energetic and 35 y/o and you don't own a lounge line, it never occurs to you to lounge other horses ever. Of course I'm still a kid and my 'invincibility complex' as you all seem to call it, is probably still intact :)Esquaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430866656336769601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-45425301316701027612009-01-02T22:25:00.000-07:002009-01-02T22:25:00.000-07:00Okay. Showmanship stuff (disclaimer, I'm far from...Okay. Showmanship stuff (disclaimer, I'm far from an expert, but I learned it in 4-H and I've practiced it with my current trainer as well as talked about it with his wife who has shown Showmanship, who has it all broken down into complex details).<BR/><BR/>I've mostly done this with adult horses, though if I dredge my brain enough, I think I can remember what I did with the first pony (who came to me as a youngster).<BR/><BR/>And note a possible disagreement with some--I will use a stud chain or at least a rope over the nose to begin with. It's there as a cue, not a discipline measure, and after a few days or so, you can fade the reminder and get rid of it. I also carry a dressage whip.<BR/><BR/>Start out with horse's ears at your shoulder. Trainer's wife told me that she always trains her Showmanship horses that they start with her left foot and stop off of her right foot. Hey, she's won well in Showmanship, so it's doable. <BR/><BR/>Make sure that you are not choking up on your lead rope. You want at least 6-12 inches between your hand and the lead snap. Longer is better, but you may have to go shorter to keep the stud chain from pulling when you don't want it to swing. Cluck to the horse as you take that first step. Stop a few steps later, with fewer steps if the start isn't prompt, more steps if it is. If the horse drags back or does not step off promptly, tap it with your dressage whip (not hit but a simple, annoying tap. Think dripping faucet type of annoyance).<BR/><BR/>In any case, you start moving. Then you want to stop. Last step with your right foot, breathe "whoa." Do NOT turn around to face horse. If Horsie doesn't pay attention, take up some tension on the stud chain and repeat "whoa." Then you face the horse and back it up promptly two or three steps, using the stud chain to reinforce the cue by putting LIGHT pressure on it (Note: in current showmanship competition, you back the horse without turning to face it. That's not the goal here. The goal here is to reinforce the slight pressure from your hand for whoa. If you want to compete in Showmanship, you'll eventually have to retrain that cue.) Don't forget to release that pressure, turn around, and immediately start off again until you hit a good quitting moment (this should not be worked on for more than 10-15 minutes, max).<BR/><BR/>Ideally, what you want is a horse that moves off when you do, stops when you do, backs up and will move haunches, forehand, or whole body with just a cluck, based on wherever your body is positioned, and whatever pressure you give from your hand. You shouldn't need a tight contact to maintain control except in exciting situations, and if you start losing your horse's attention, then a quick whoa-back gets it back. <BR/><BR/>In my experience, working with my trainer with a couple of rehabs, a few short sessions of alternately tapping (for prompt start) and pressure/back two-three steps quickly cues the horse to pay attention. You want to get to the point where the horse watches you, and cues off of the slightest move of your hand.<BR/><BR/>The other thing to deal with is the pocket pony. That's a space issue. Pocket ponies will practically step on your heels to stay with you. Frequent starts and stops, and a discreet finger poke in the neck or jowl combined with a soft growl usually discourages the pocket pony.<BR/><BR/>Then there's teaching the horse to stand square (my old Sparkle witch embarrassed me at one 4-H show by dropping her head and sagging one hind foot every time I looked away from her. She wasn't a Showmanship girl!). Haunches turns and forehand turns. Sidepassing. Trotting in hand. In all of these, the goal is to get the horse to respond to the position of your body, and the position of your free hand (as well as a soft cluck). Ideally, you should be able to cue a forehand turn by standing just behind the shoulder, pointing your finger, and clucking. Forehand turns are harder than haunches turns, btw.<BR/><BR/>All those skills are applicable in handling. Being able to turn on haunches and forehand gives you more manueverability and control on the ground, and you never know when you might need to do that. Pointing and clucking to move a tied horse over when you want it to move not only looks better than slapping or shoving the horse over, but it's also easier on you and the horse. Plus it's a pretty impressive alleyway trick to show off to beginners (grin).<BR/><BR/>I teach ground tie simply because I've needed to saddle a horse in a situation where I couldn't tie it up (again, the Sparkle witch mare). It's also useful if you need to rearrange ground poles, cones, etc in the arena and you don't want to drag Horsie around with you.<BR/><BR/>The biggest key in all this is consistency. Use the same cues in grooming and moving your horse somewhere (into stalls, between pastures, when cross-tied) that you would do while schooling showmanship. Doing this also makes sense to the horse and gives it a structure it can understand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-22446908390588724792009-01-02T21:30:00.000-07:002009-01-02T21:30:00.000-07:00Heila-Read Foxtrotters comments...what she said.Heila-Read Foxtrotters comments...what she said.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-72592490397719098662009-01-02T21:26:00.000-07:002009-01-02T21:26:00.000-07:00To get mine to lead next to my shoulder, I keep a ...To get mine to lead next to my shoulder, I keep a small whip, long enough to reach their behind and just tap their butt to keep them going forward. It will take time to get them to understand what you want, but keep with it. When they do what you ask, even if it's not exactly where you want them, stop tapping. You will need to start with them at your shoulder at a stand still, tap them and when they move forward, you move forward, try not to ask them to stop, then you just get into mixed signals. you want forward movement as long as you are getting it, try not to interfere too much with it. Obviously your safety is most important. But once the idea of "oh I'm supposed to be here not there" gets into their head, you can back them off if they get ahead of you. Sorry this is not written well, I have a hard time explaining things, it's easier to show you.foxtrotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01822550326812928072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-14452051853152554372009-01-02T21:18:00.000-07:002009-01-02T21:18:00.000-07:00I agree with what you've said. That is why I sold ...I agree with what you've said. That is why I sold the two year old that I had. She could do everything I asked on the ground next to me, yet I had an irrational fear of getting on her back. While I did do it, I really think that I was giving her some mixed signals, she never did anything wrong. Stupidly my fear came after she kicked me in the chest, obviously we were on the ground, and more importantly I should have done what I did when I scared her into kicking. She never did that again and I tried getting her to do it so we could nip it in the bud if it was an issue. But getting on her was just not going to happen, so I sold her to someone that got on her the third day of owning her and is having a blast, because all my ground work and wasted time for me, worked wonders for her. <BR/>Side note: What is your take on leaving a horse tied when you know they pull back all the time. I'm a believer in let them throw their fit and when they are done they can stand some more. None of my horses pull back and when they have they pull then quit. I see other people that never tie their horse because it pulls back and they don't want it to get hurt. I don't know what they do when they come across the situation that their horse has to be tied.foxtrotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01822550326812928072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-72182614229369220882009-01-02T21:17:00.000-07:002009-01-02T21:17:00.000-07:00Joycemocha... I completely agree! My mare is a w...Joycemocha... I completely agree! My mare is a wonderful showmanship horse and I think that has a lot to do with her ground manners. The process of teaching her showmanship demanded respect from her and she learned to stay at my shoulder, step away from me when I step into her, and also to stand where I put her until I ask her to move.in2paintshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15721328264615241612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-17208856281420515872009-01-02T21:07:00.000-07:002009-01-02T21:07:00.000-07:00mugs, I think that's fair enough. I caught a lot o...mugs, I think that's fair enough. I caught a lot of flack from Mr. Gods gift to horse and rider for using groundwork instead of getting on and riding. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been pressured to give up groundwork even when its serving a useful purpose. So it does seem to swing both ways.gillianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12116128687769268871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-71482613257601064252009-01-02T20:51:00.000-07:002009-01-02T20:51:00.000-07:00joycemocha-we need some showmanship input.....on g...joycemocha-we need some showmanship input.....on getting your horse to lead happily and willingly at your shoulder. I don't lead that way, but I 100% see why Heila needs her horse to. I'd rather hear from a showmanship person than me,it's more what she's looking for. Any thoughts?mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-17978383223773235192009-01-02T20:32:00.000-07:002009-01-02T20:32:00.000-07:00I'm a 52 year old re-rider with a permanent screw ...I'm a 52 year old re-rider with a permanent screw in one ankle from a mare who stopped suddenly and damaged my leg/ankle/heel badly. Forever. It also forever damaged my self confidence which was never solid to begin with. <BR/><BR/>That said there are 2 things that .must. be in place before I climb aboard.<BR/><BR/>1. standing still while mounting and dismounting. Rock solid. We will work on this on the ground till it's solid enough to suit me. I have help the first few times, but the ground work I've done with leading and teaching a solid stop generally make it a non issue. <BR/><BR/>2. knowing what whoa means. Again, it's the stop that counts when you are on top. It's the first thing I work on, and it's the one thing I work on *no matter what* at the beginning and end of every ride. I don't want to have to depend on reins or the bit because when you get frightened you often lose your reins or in the case of beginners, they are too long to work well. <BR/><BR/>Other than that, the way I keep fear at bay is to DO IT. Get on and at least walk. There is no substitute for moving. There is no other way that I've found to overcome my fear than to find where it begins and work at the edges. Then when those edges crumble and I'm okay there....move toward something else that makes me worried. <BR/><BR/>The summer of '08 I leased my mare to a young woman who became afraid of her and my solution was for her to ride every day. Guess what happened? She got over it. <BR/><BR/>Just like Nike says "Just DO it!"Hollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17685436243608973979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-64777755938014492972009-01-02T20:26:00.000-07:002009-01-02T20:26:00.000-07:00I agree there is such a thing as too much ground w...I agree there is such a thing as too much ground work. I agree basically with what you want from a horse, but most importantly I want the horse to look to me for direction when stressed, trust me. It usually doesn't take long for some trust to build with basic handling and lunging. Depending on the horse, I may ground drive before the first ride to reinforce what that thing in his mouth is for. This has never taken me more than a couple of weeks for a horse getting worked consistently 3-5 times per week. I don't enjoy the ground work, so the sooner it's over the better.<BR/><BR/>I equate ground work vs. riding for the horse to the difference between driving a car and a truck; the view is completely different and can make old things look new. It doesn't matter how many times a horse has seen a plastic bag with you leading him, when he sees one while you are riding it can be a new and scary monster. He must learn to look to his human for stability, comfort and direction. You can't stop a spook, but you can condition how your horse spooks.<BR/><BR/>I completely agree that lunges a broke horse cripples the rider and the horse. Usually once I start riding a horse, the lunging is done.<BR/><BR/>On a side note, Flair’s first ride will be this week, after less than two weeks of sporadic actual work (and two years of other horses and lack of time for her). She was ready today. I ran out of time as I want ample, unrushed time to get to a good, healthy stopping point. I can hardly wait!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4380534023229200743.post-22007997149380804532009-01-02T20:01:00.000-07:002009-01-02T20:01:00.000-07:00Nice rant and great comments.Agreed, it is time un...Nice rant and great comments.<BR/><BR/>Agreed, it is time under saddle that makes the saddle horse. No arguments here. And yes, I own horses so that I can ride.<BR/><BR/>Looking forward to the next post.Whywudyabreedithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12069453160852561143noreply@blogger.com