Tuesday, June 7, 2011

Blame It On Becky

Becky, as in, Blog of, wrote and asked me recently to explain exactly what my problem with Hancock bred horses is. After she finished berating me for being a close-minded ass she threatened to ride her horse, Popsicle Stick Head, to Colorado and beat me up.

OK, maybe I'm exaggerating just a tad, maybe she just asked me very nicely to tell her about my reservations about them because she has fallen in love with a beautiful Hancock bred filly. Maybe I'm just feeling feisty.


While I'm at it I should cover what my problem is with mustangs, egyptian bred arabs, Skipper W bred quarter horses and miniature horses.

I have been busted making a sneering remark or two about these breeds and types of horse.

I've been known to tell the joke, "Do you know why the Nez Pierce really chose the Appaloosa? Because they were the only horses slow enough to catch on foot."

But guess what? I don't really, truly have a problem with any of them, because I like all horses. Every single one of them.

I can tell you why I choose not to own some of them though.


Tally was a Hancock bred mare. You guys are reading about her right now, so you will see the ups and downs of this mare soon enough.


I had a fancy roping bred mare in for training. She was a big blue roan Hancock bred thing. She bucked so hard she threw me, my help and the bronc rider who lived at our barn before I gave her back to the owner. The other horse this gal owned was a finished roper, also Handcock bred. She was a week end trail rider. The gelding ended up bucking her off too.

I helped her get her mare in with a trainer at the T-Cross Ranch (majorly respected ranch). She tore down their 100-year-old round pen, broke the trainers arm and knocked him out cold on three seperate occasions. He finally got her trained. Both of these horses periodically toss their riders to this day.

The last place I worked had a three-year-old black Hancock bred filly and a 5-year-old blue roan Hancock bred mare. The filly started out easy as could be. Then one day she exploded and bucked like a maniac. She would buck on a longe line, buck with a rider, buck in place while at the tie rail.

She kept this up for about 90 days or so and then decided to be broke. From what I hear she's been fine to this day.

The blue roan mare was broke, broke, broke. She had been off for two years being a broodmare. The boss decided she wanted to sell the mare. When we brought her up to tune her up to sell she went out of her mind. She tried to jump the arena fence while tied to it and then bolted and tried to jump it again while being longed.She slammed into the steel pipe fence with everything she had, fell to the ground, got up and tried again.

All of these horses came around, at least to a point. All of these horses were willing to hurt themselves in order to unload a rider or a rope when they come undone.

They were all strong, big-footed and fast. They had solid bone. These are good qualities when they work for you but very tough to overcome whrm used against you.

I know people who love their Hancocks. I have been told they make amazing ranch horses and ropers.

I have been told they are sweet, kind and gentle.

I have been told my quick, early training ways are why I don't get along with them.

I don't disagree with any of those things. I just know I tend to run into problems with them. Hancock bred horses are often bigger and slower footed than I like, although Tally was as maneuverable as I could ever want, but really tough to train. So I stay away from them.

As far as Becky goes, the filly she is fast losing her heart to has been raised by a good friend of hers who owns both the mare and stud this filly came from. She will be available to help Becky and her horses are all good horses.

Becky is no slouch when it comes to her skills and trusts and enjoys these horses. So I say go for it, just don't send me this filly for training, I'll get bucked off.

I don't care for Skipper W's. I live in Hank Weiscamp country, so this is dangerous talk. But, the Skipper W's I have ridden are big muscled, small footed, bad tempered things. They are slow. Pretty headed though. Again, I avoid them.

I'm not ant-Foundation bred horses. I get along with Poco Buenos, Doc Bars, Hollywood Golds, Hollywood Jacks, Gay Bars, King breds, and more.

When you ride a lot of horses you find out the blood lines you get along with and the ones you don't. You tend to lean towards the ones you get along with.

I like the look of Polish Arabs. The only Arabs I have known with sense are Polish Arabs. The goofy ones were Egyptian and I feel like I'll break them in half if I ride them. I'm the first to admit I don't have a lot of experience with Arabs, I only go by what I've dealt with. I'm fascinated with the Shagya's. I'd like to have one for endurance.

Mustangs are too hit and miss for me. I don't believe they're a breed. they are mutts. I don't care if they are called Kigers or Spanish, they are horses who have not come from controlled breeding programs. If they run to type they are inbred, not a breed.

They don't work for what I want a horse to do for me. I have owned a mustang and train several. They were easy to train, a little cold-blooded, sweet and solid. I even trained one I knew would cow and was tempted to buy her and try to show her.The economy squashed that plan but she has a good life as a trail horse.

I do resent the fact the government is paying to house them by the thousands while countless well bred horses are going to slaughter, even though I am well aware it's not the mustangs fault.

Mini's are too short and I can't keep them in a fence.

I make my joke about Appies because I think it's funny but I am very fond of the breed and have known more than one I would own in a heart beat. I'm just mean.

So now you know a few of my terrible opinions when it comes to horses. Blame it on Becky.

69 comments:

Anonymous said...

I have to agree to all your points. Especially the arabs. I love arabs...let me be more specific. I love polish arabs. Egyptians look like a deformed swan with horrible minds. My currentmare is a polish arab/qh cross. She is 6years old. You wouldnt know it. You also wouldnt know she was an arab...except she looks like one. That and shes one of the few 14.2 hh horses ill let my 6ft tall husband on without fear of hurting her.

And in my opion hancock horses tend to be nuts

Oh and my husbands appy is slow as a slug :)

penny33 said...

I got my nose a little out of joint when I read the beginning of your post and realized that you were going to dis Skipper W bred horses...and then I read your absolutely perfectly accurate description of them. I own a big muscled and bad tempered skipper W mare with little feet....but she does have a beautiful head :) She can be difficult, stubborn, and downright evil sometimes but I've owned her for 7 years and I wouldn't trade her for anything :) I deal with her faults because she is smart and works harder for me than any horse I've ever ridden. She hates warm ups but shines in the show pen, and she almost refuses to work for anyone else. I know this makes her a terrible horse...but she suits me just fine. Even though I will own my girl until the day she dies I don't think I'll ever want to deal with another Skipper W horse. Love your stories mugs, they make my day.

Muriel said...

Hmmm (cough) what are Hancock bred horses? a Line of QH? Ranch QH?

I love your joke about Appy. They have a real bad reputation here. But I have met some really sturdy and level headed.

Joy said...

I've been reading the blogs I follow through google reader and so I hadn't seen your updated page til today. Love the picture of the yellow horse. Who is it? Also love the action shots.

I found this blog very interesting. I've heard the same thing about Hancock bred horses from several different sources. It's amazing how lines can carry certain idiosyncrasies on and on through generations.

I love my own red boy. He's Doc Bar/Colonel Freckles. He looks exactly like his grandpa, Freckles Playboy.

I love that look. And he's very smart. I'd be interested to know what line he gets his commen sense from. I'd own any others like him.

My friend has a "quarter horse" but we both believe this horse is a mustang. He's a bucker.

Anyway, I'll stop babbling now. Thanks for a great read this am!

Jenny said...

Hancock = slingshot, good golly can those ponies buck. Most of the time they sure are pretty, but pretty is as pretty does.

Kate said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kate said...

I've got two good QHs now - a King/Colonel Freckles/Jet Deck and a Doc Bar/Driftwood/Jet Deck - both have lots of Three Bars and are working bred on top and race bred on the bottom. Haven't had much experience with Hancocks, although I saw a nice, well-behaved one at a clinic last month - a big well built blue roan. (I see there's some Hancock in Driftwood Ike, so no. 2's got a little Hancock a ways back.)

Becky said...

Don't be ridiculous, Mugs - only lowclass people ride Popsicle stick horses. My horse was made of the finest retractable Gel Ink Roller Ballpoint pen. You just can't beat that contoured rubber grip ride.

You gave me a lot to think about - I started researching because I was having such a rough time trying to mesh all the negatives I had been hearing about that line with the really nice horses my friend seems to have. Then again, ALL her horses are nice, regardless of bloodlines, so I'm pretty sure it's just the way she's raises/trains them.

On the other hand, I knew a Hancock-bred mare that was absolutely bat-sh**. She belonged to a couple of cowboy friends who got a kick out of her hi-jinx - I, for one, don't bounce NEARLY well enough to find stuff like that funny.

The three main "answers" to their reputation seem to be that they:

A: Mature mentally a little slower than other horses, so they should be started a little later.

and

B: Really resent being rushed in/through their training. It seems like you can only push them so fast, so far, and then you need to take the occasional breather and let them think through it on their own.

C: Once they get it, they GET it... but you have to work to make them get it. And that's what concerns me.

I'm still not sure where I stand, but I do look forward to reading the rest of the comments.

mugwump said...

joy- the horse in the photo is my mare and the action photos are us at a the first show in about three years...the day before EHV-1 broke in the news. Of course I was cutting.
Becky- excuse me....although we only have your word you were on a Gel Ink, rumor has it you've been known to ride not only popsicle sticks, but sugar free grape popsicle sticks. You just call them Gel Ink's cuz everybody knows sugar free grape are stupid, slow and have unsightly ergot growth.

Minus Pride said...

Loved my arab, but when I first met and handled him, I said I WILL NEVER OWN A HORSE LIKE THIS!!! Then we got to know each other, bonded, and I wouldn't have sold him for any amount of money by the time he died.
It would be very interesting to hear if the people who love their Hancock's & Skipper W's train in a completely different manner/timing than you do.

Scamp said...

I used to ride a Skipper W horse who fit that description exactly. Big-muscled, built like a bull dog, small feet, gorgeous faced palomino gelding. I almost bought him because he was so pretty.

He cleaned up in the palomino halter classes as a baby, but boy, he did not want to work for a living. Not that he wouldn't move - he'd just not cooperate about where and how fast (both extremes being an option in his mind).

I've never met a horse who held a grudge like he did if you made him work, either. I can still see him standing in the crossties afterwards, looking at me with his eyes slitted, plotting revenge. He did manage to crack a couple of my ribs.

I'm really happy to have a nice Doc Olena/Freckles-bred boy now. He's not as purty, and he can be a bit opinionated, but he's never deliberately tried to hurt me and he doesn't hold grudges, so it's all good.

gtyyup said...

Well, I don't have much personal experience with Hancock bred horses until last month when my good friend and neighbor was killed by the horse in some sort of a wreck. We'll never know what triggered the 6 year old gelding, but the outcome was awful. I'd been at a branding just two weeks before and she'd roped calves with the horse and you couldn't ask for a better minded horse. He'd never shown any signs in the past of bucking or not going with the program. He was to be her next barrel prospect. The saddest part is that her husband helped pick out that specific bloodline...for why, I don't know :(

Another friend of mine has a Skipper W stud and I got to ride one of her colts for a time...hated that horse. Not one willing bone in his body unless it's what he wanted to do. Pretty head and a big hip...lousy disposition.

I love my mustangs for what they are best at...trail riding. Big hearts, lovely personalities, big and sure footed. But, they don't work cows the way a QH will.

barrelracingmom said...

Now I've seen a few Peppy horses still be bucking years into successful careers!

CurtsBooks said...

My farrier, who runs cattle on the Arizona strip & south Utah and has ridden many horses, has said that the Hancock horses make good ranch horses but they are really tough. The average pleasure rider just does not ride them hard enough to keep them honest. He rather likes them, although maybe not as much now as when he was younger.

I've seen Mustangs that look like everything from drafty to TB. And some that are just weedy generic horse.
My favorite Appy joke is something along the lines that the Indians rode them because when they got to where they were going, they were so angry that they fought & beat anything that came against them. I've had Appys, like them, but don't like the too frequent eye problems.
Minis too often look like dwarfs & badly out of proportion. But when they are right, I am overwhelmed by the cute factor!
Enjoyed your blog.

MalteseLizzieMcGee said...

There's not much of a horse breeding business where I live, but I've ridden various different breeds. My favourite has to be the Barb breed in general they're smart and sensitive, though a little wilful and stubborn.
All the French Trotters I've met were super calm: they tend to become trail horses whern they've finished their racing career.
I haven't reallly ridden enough horses of other breeds to make any judgements, though I remember riding an Arabian horse in Tunisia: lovely horse, but stubborn. And there was a little Fjord/Thoroughbred I rode in Scotland: pretty, but kind of boring in comparison with a Barb

Shanster said...

Fun post Mugs... I'm not familiar with any of those lines but I enjoyed the read!

Shirley said...

I owned a mare once, named Miss Spice Hancock, who was both Hancock and Skipper W bred, so I got a little chuckle out of this post. It seems that in this mare, she got the best of both bloodlines; she was grey, pretty, athletic (reining and barrels and ranch work) and the only time she bucked was as a two year old when she was pushed too far too fast. Generally speaking I agree with what you , and Becky in her comment, said about the Hancocks. I definitely prefer not to have it on a pedigree, or at least so far back as to be inconsequential.
Re the comment on Peppys; Mr. San Peppy and Peppy San were full brothers, and sired completely different temperaments. The Mr. San Peppys are easier to train and get along with than the Peppy Sans who are known to be a little broncy and hard headed. My Beamer is a grandson of Mr. San Peppy, and is a real sweetheart.

mugwump said...

Gyttyup- I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. Any horse will buck if the circumstances fit. But the Hancocks tend to be incredibly strong. If they go, they go hard.
My beloved Poco Buenos (Mort was a grandson) are known to be buckers. They also are weenie buckers, so they're easy to stop and ride.



CurtsBooks-Exactly! I have heard the same thing about Hancocks. They need to be worked and worked hard and they're nobody's baby.

Anonymous said...

Poco Buenos (Mort was a grandson) are known to be buckers. They also are weenie buckers, so they're easy to stop and ride.

Okay glad to here this I have a bucker yes more of a wennie bucker (thus far) and only under certain conditions (thus far). Not a bloodline buff but dam has Poco Buenos on her side.

Mary said...

I had an Appy/Arab cross for a while, he was dumb as a stump.

Amy said...

You know anything about paints? My mare sometimes has a screw or two loose, my trainer is of the opinion that color breeds tend to be a little nuttier because the breeders breed for the color and sometimes less for disposition and conformation.

Things are a lot better since I've been learning to ride better, I haven't been dumped in forever. But Lic's standard reaction to something scaring her is to bolt her way into a bucking fit- I managed to sit the last two out getting her stopped after 10 or 15 hard bucks (well for me, she's the only bucker I have ever ridden), and she hasn't done it in nearly a year. The more solid of a rider I become the calmer I can keep her and shut her down before a full bolt/buck happens.

Besides the bucking, she has a lazy streak a mile long, and if you kick her or whack her with a rein, she'll turn into this sullen cow and plant her feet. This is getting much better as I've been working with a trainer for almost 2 years now... but my trainer can get a lot more out of her than I can... I'm just not a good enough rider to push her with my seat/legs without getting frustrated.

I don't know who her sire is, and I know her dam goes back to Jetalito somewhere along the way. Her dam is a little high strung at times too and managed to give her owner a concussion bucking her off. Just wondered if you had any thought.

Denisarita said...

The reason Nez Pierce had his warriors ride appys is so they would be good and mad by the time they reached the battle!

Anonymous said...

I have a mare I suspect is solid Appy stock--freckled lip. She's kind of a rescue horse--ringbone in front feet, back ankles aren't great either. Yet she is all kinds of awesome, and I sure wish I'd known her when she was younger. Whenever one of my younger horses needs reassurance, she magically appears for moral support. She is one of the only mares I've ever had that radiates gratitude whenever I do anything for her, whether it's grooming or flyspray or just standing with her. A good mare with a lot of common sense is great to have even if they're so lame they can't be ridden--and even if they're Appy! :)

Joy said...

"the horse in the photo is my mare and the action photos are us at a the first show in about three years...the day before EHV-1 broke in the news. Of course I was cutting"

well, she's lovely. and ah crap about the show/EHV-1. that figures huh. crossing fingers for you that she is just fine.

ORRancher said...

I have two mares right now I'm riding, one is foundation Hancock and the other is a Skipper W mare. I wouldn't trade either one of them for the world. The Hancock mare has never bucked once...cough...yet. :-0 She gets a little cranky when you ask her to work herself but she gets it super fast. The Skipper W mare is talented beyond belief, but she is also a Native Dancer appendix mare. She is the most natural cowhorse ever...cuts like there is no tomorrow and really gets underneath herself and moves her shoulder. I can't wait to breed her back and see what we get. She is going to be bred to a Highbrow Cat stud. Cross fingers...

ORRancher said...

Forgot to add....If I didn't love her so much I would give away my Nu Cash mare. She is a cranky SOB. She will buck with you everytime and twice on Sunday...

Justaplainsam said...

Any thoughts on the TB's? I used to dislike them but now that I own a 3/4 they are growing on me... ;) I agree completly with everything you said. We have a local breeder that thought that Skipper W's were the best and imported a bunch. She only got one good one, and she was only good in that when crossed with a good pleasure stud she produced good babies.

DarcC said...

Argh, TBs...I love to watch them, but don't think I'll ever own one again. I've fallen off every breed there is, but I been deliberately thrown twice - and both were TB mares. The first one had never seen a race track and was the sweetest thing ever on the ground, but when she wanted me off she bronced. I swore I'd never have a another TB, never have a chestnut, never have anything over 15.2. So some time years later, I bought a 16.3 chestnut TB mare. I did a lawn dart off of her, helmet first into the ground. Had a bruise on my head through the helmet. Never again. I swear.

Sydney_bitless said...

Just like any breed/bloodline theres going to be a few bad apples. I personally dislike Hancock horses for the same reasons you explained. I haven't met one yet that hasn't tried to offload it's rider on more than one occasion.
I also dislike the paint and appaloosa breed. After spending three months in Oklahoma in horseshoeing school I seen more poorly bred paints and appies than any other horse, mostly because they have spots and thats all people seem to see in them. Not like brains or conformation matter...nooo. The paint horses were always the first to try and kill someone in the shoeing barn but they were bred because "they had colour" as in the horse had a vagina and the owner drank the "kolor kool-aid". Don't get me wrong I have met a handful of nice paints but for every nice paint I see comes along about 100+ that aren't. If only conformation and brains were top priority over coat colour. A good horse is never the wrong colour.

redhorse said...

I always heard that appys were hard headed and nasty, and that the Nez Pierce used them for war ponies so the braves would be good and mad by the time they got to the battle.

I've had a couple of horses who fit the description of Hancocks, and they weren't. My 5 yr old fits the description that Becky gave. This year he just started looking and acting like a horse, he's been very slow to mature. I've been very slow to get him started, and found that he can't handle being rushed into something he isn't sure of. This year (knock on wood) he seems to have a whole new attitude toward work. I have noticed that there are bloodlines that seem to require a different approach to training.

Candy'sGirl said...

I love Arabs, but I completely agree about the Egyptian ones. Brainless demented swans. They're usually batshit crazy and they pretty much can't perform any of the functions an Arab is supposed to be able to perform.

Russians are too big for my liking and not quite typey enough for me. Spanish aren't too bad, but Polish are by far my favorite. They're bred to be all around horses. My Polish boy totally suits my ADD riding style. Some days we do dressage, some days days we chase cans, some days we jump, this fall we're going to follow the hounds. If I had access to cattle and someone to teach us, I'd love to learn to cut too.

JJ said...

I don't comment often, but I do read just about every one of your posts! My mom is a stock horse fanatic and as a little kid (until I was about 12), I grew up with Quarter Horses. After that, I switched to the Morgan breed, but I still have a fondness for a good big butted stock horse. Anyway, my last Quarter Horse gelding was out of Dodger's Playboy. I don't know enough to know if he was a well known sire or not, but if so, do you know anything about him? My gelding (Flashy Bit O'luck) was an ornery little gelding, but boy did he have heart! ANyway, I just love your blog :)

BreakableRider said...

I agree whole heartedly on Hancock horses. I rode for a horse trader for a few years and my stomach did flips whenever we got Hancock horses in. I'd rarely see the papers but they have such a distinctive look, I kne. Being the fail of a bronc rider I am, I very nearly peed my pants on a few occassions.

Those horses had to be ridden hard every day and if you did they were the sweetest, hardest working, couldn't ask for better horses I knew. Skip a day and you had a bronc on your hands that would not only buck you off but run over your broken body afterwards. They're the bipolar ones of the hrose world.

Occassionally my boss would bring in a few colts for me to start under saddle, I refused to step a foot into the saddle. I'd get all the groundwork done but that's it. No amount of money in the world would get me on a Hancock horse that's had less than 90 days under saddle.

mugwump said...

Breakable- we are in agreement then. Since you were working for a horse trader I'm thinking there may be something to the fact they can't be rushed.
Ranches usually wait until a colt is four or five to start them, so the the colts can go straight to work and stay sound.
Hancocks would be perfect for this kind of situation.
In our work situation we had to have them working, young and quick.

Anonymous said...

I'll raise your Appaloosa and say I can't stand POA's. Bratty spotted ponies, in my experience.

joycemocha said...

I admit to biases much like yours. G shares our opinion of Hancocks, though the folks who love 'em love 'em hard. The only Skipper W I've known was a really sweet stud horse.

With Mocha, I've really fallen hard for the Doc O'Lena/Gay Bar King nick. She's got them top and bottom and they make for a nice little horse, though they're not for everyone. They're sensitive. They're opinionated. But they have a hella work ethic, and have enough sting for this ammy rider.

Arab-wise, I also like the Crabbet/Davenport types, as well as the Russians. Those horses tend to be performance-bred, though, so that's a factor.

I can't stand a lot of Paints. Too many are pretty but ain't much in the brain department. OTOH, a good Paint is usually incredible.

I like Appies but I want the old rat-tail quasi-Arab/Iberian looking type, not the QH with spots. Or the TB-Appy types.

Karen V said...

When I got back into horses, I pased over EVERY advertisement for Appys out there. I had no use for them. I thought they were ugly, and I'd heard of the Appy-tude issue.

A friend had a little (14.2) mud-fence UGLY bald-faced, one blue eyed, broom-tailed, carouselhorse maned, club-footed fugly mare that she needed to keep in shape while she was for sale. So she talked me into riding her.

The mare is SO ROUGH it's like riding a pogostick with no spring. She is absolutely exhausting to ride.

BUT, she doesn't have a mean bone in her body. She will never hurt intentionally. When I come off - because she can roll back on me faster than I can react - she stops and waits for me to get up and get back on. I can NOT wear her out - evern if we are BOTH out of shape. She can go all day.

I fell in love with her and bought her seven years ago and I wouldn't trade her for anything. I STILL think she is the ugliest horse EVER!!

Heth. said...

I have a little 26 year old Skipper W mare(http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/skipadoreen), and she had a lot of buck in her when I got her back in december. Her spunk kind of scared me at first, but she's settled down a lot. She's super responsive, super smart, and super willing. Skippy was a young girl's back up barrel horse. Bought from the Lewisville auction for 50 bucks, with papers. She was 23. After a few years, they asked me if I wanted her because she was too old, too cheap, and not spotted. I guess she likes that I do more with her than run her in an arena and tie her up to a trailer. It's so hot here right now (I live in Louisiana) I just ride bareback on the training track or in the big pasture. We swim through the pond sometimes. I might run a saddle series on her in august. Right now, she's just enjoying her retirement.

I haven't rode a lot of fancy horses so I can't really compare her according to bloodlines, just mostly what's been thrown my way, whatever my barn owner tells me to get on. I just do it. She breeds friesians and has an affinity for things she feels crosses well with them (Some drafts, mostly percherons, or smaller horses like arabs or nsh's.) I prefer the flat, low movements and quickness of stock horses instead of the loftiness and slowness of what she likes.

Me and Skip get along well. She's short and stocky, she has good feet although I keep shoes on her, and she has a pretty head. Little bay mare with a white star. I like that she is still spunky and opinionated, and she's aged well. Has some thyroid enlargement, but our vet says that something else will probably kill her before that will. People are shocked when I tell them how old she is, most guess that she's in her early teens. She's the best thing I've gotten for free and the best horse I've gotten to ride regularly.

And this was a long comment, apologies!

nagonmom said...

Yep,our mini escapes the polypropylene fencing pretty much at will. Luckily, we have plank or wire at the perimeters so he can't go far.

Anonymous said...

:) Maybe part of it is how willing the riders are to alter themselves to what the horses need, or how well rider and horse suit each other? One of the horses at the riding school I go to is a 21 yo appy/QH cross mare. She can be stubborn and won't tolerate rough handling, but treat her gently and with respect & she's the sweetest most reliable old horse. I love riding her. One of my own boys is a quarter horse / standardbred cross - rush him and he is stubborn, treat him gentle and he's a sweetheart; he gets on better with me than other riders and from what I can see a lot of it is because I ask and don't boss.

Christine said...

Now don't be dishing Sraight Egyptians, There are quite a few out there that are doing horses.
Amiin+// (working cow) The Renagade (show hack, costume)
And the late Mary Weeks' Summers Kiss, a rescue mare that she rode in parades, civil war reenactments, HUS, all while riding sidesaddle. Off of the top of my head this morning.
They are most certainly pretty, and when given the chance excell under saddle. They won't break in two, they will outlast you. And you have to be as smart as they are.

Anonymous said...

I have to stick up for Appys and POAs here. I've owned three Appys and my personal horse is a 13.1 POA mare. Now, she is the smartest horse I've ever trained, athletic as hell, and will go anywhere for me... that said, she bucks when she's pissed at me (not hard though), and that smart is a two-edged sword - you'd better make damn sure you know what you're teaching her and don't leave any gates open! POAs and Appys both, you can't intimidate them. Most folks don't like that, but I do. Keeps me honest.
As for my Appys, they're all lesson horses. They may be slow and uncomfortable, but all three have huge, kind hearts and honestly go out if their ways to keep their small riders aboard. Can't ask for more than that in that line of work.

mugwump said...

Christine- now don't be dissing people who give their opinions. We can all find shining examples of any breed and any horse can out last me, I'm pretty busted up.

kel said...

... said that the Hancock horses make good ranch horses but they are really tough. The average pleasure rider just does not ride them hard enough to keep them honest.

Well that is a mouthful.... That is where I am at with my hancock filly. I can not wear her out! She is one of the most athletic, cowy, fast, tough, smart, sure footed horses I have ever ridden (no bucking - maybe I should say "YET"), but you can not wear her out! She IS the energizer bunny! I agree that they are slow maturing horses and that they need time to come into their own. I can see how the Hancocks got the reputation of being awesome ranch horses, they are tough and they can go all day. If my filly sees the purpose in something, she is going to do it willingly. Put her working cows and she is the bomb, ask her to lope circles and you are going to have a fight. What are you gonna do? :)

Haven't had any experience with Skipper W breed horses but the ones I have seen do have nice heads but do seem to have a little snark to them.

I have seen some nice mustangs that are trained and work really nicely. I have also seen some pit-bulls that are trained and really nice. With both but it is usually more of the owners doing than the animal itself. And it seems that some of mustang owners are under educated, inexperienced newbies that fell in love with the idea of owning a piece of american history and not for the love of the horse itself. They get in over their head really quickly. It is hard to form an opinion about them when you never know what you are getting.

InTheBridle said...

I think it also makes a difference in what bloodlines you like if you train young horses vs buy broke horses. I know a couple people that love Quincy Dan horses. I h.a.t.e. training them. When they decide they aren't in the mood to do something, you better have a lunch packed because it's going to be a long fight. Once they're broke, they're great, but getting there is no fun.

I don't have any use for horses that buck on a whim-- Hancocks and Music Mounts are the ones that come to mind immediately. I actually don't mind a horse that's a little cold backed, but one that will break in two for no good reason in the middle of a ride is no fun.

I actually had a Hancock horse that I bought as a yearling that we sold as a 6 year old that never bucked. He was appendix, out of a TB mare, and tremendously athletic with great bone and feet. He was also tremendously insecure and an honest 16.2. Being on 16.2/1400 pounds of horse trembling because he's scared is not a great feeling. Unfortunately, we heard after we sold him that the people weren't able to give him the leadership and security he needed and he was developing some vices and even becoming aggressive. He also went from living out and being mountain trail ridden regularly to living in a stall with a run, so that likely didn't help.

My current horse is a 7 year old Doc Bar/Hollywood Gold/Bueno Chex gelding (all on his papers, his sire and dam were old) that we bought as a weanling. He tries to buck, but really can't, thank goodness, and he doesn't even try very often. He's big, but smart and fun. I have a 4 year old coming to my place soon by a sire very closely related to my gelding and out of a mare whose pedigree reads like a who's who of bloodlines I usually try to avoid-- Music Mount, Quincy Dan, Impressive and if you go far enough back, even some Hancock. He's pretty and big, and tries hard, but at 2 bucked my dad off, hard. He was scared, so I'm hoping he has a King Fritz, buck-for-a-reason mentality and not a Music Mount "hey, now seems like a good time to buck" mentality. He's going well, but my job is to put some finish on him. It's going to be interesting.

My dad also has a 2 year old at his place out of my gelding's dam (Fame Chex/Bueno Chex/Hobby Horse) and by a Hollywood Gold/Hancock stud. So far he's kind of big and dull, but he hasn't been started yet due to the wet spring. I'm really hoping when he wakes up he doesn't blow up. Fingers crossed.

Christine said...

LOL, Mugs I didn't mean to diss you! I totally understand the misconception people have of Egyptian bred horses. They went from being real using horses, the eary imports like the Babsons and Browns come to mind. In the eighties there was a shift to the garden ornament mindset not because the horse wasn't capable under saddle but for the money the dang things where bringing.

Jolene said...

I had a Skipper W exception - Breeding Stock Paint gelding, big butt, pretty head, good feet. Absolute DOLL to train, super super quick to learn. Only problem was he didn't see the point in longeing, so he'd do his WTC each way, stop, back up, and then take off and go back to the barn, ha! I might have to write up a Mouthy Monday on him, lil bugger broke my heart. But he was Skipper W pretty close up and the best horse I've ever had.

Ponyice said...

Bwhahaha at the Appy joke. My Appy is the easiest horse to catch, but mainly because he comes to the barn when I call him. And I was suprised I bought an Appy actually but he was perfect in every way for me but his rollbacks and rundowns are not slow :) they are a little fast for me. I have to hang on for 360s because he could spin a hole in the ground and I will fly off when I ask whoa.

My first horse was an Arab and I loved him dearly mainly because he was mine. My rodeo friends called me crazy for riding arabs, but arabs have heart and are smart and want to please usually. The ones I met did at least. I have heard the stipulation on Hancock bred and seen it firsthand. But I would like think it's like the Impressive bred HYPP status, it's not a guarranty they will buck just a higher probability. But I think it depends on the horse. I love all horses, even bucking ones I just choose to admire them from afar.

vehemently said...

Maybe I will write an homage to my first horse for Mouthy Mondays - the best Polish bred arabian gelding in the world... yep. I think I will. :)

Michelle said...

I usually like your blog, but your comments about the mustangs really disappoint me. I will take my mustangs over most people's domestics any day.

I agree with one of your points. The BLM shouldn't pay so much to "house" them. Nothing wrong with a little survival of the fittest.

Half Dozen Farm said...

Amy asked about Jetalito bred paints. I had one. Gave him away. He was dangerous and unpredictable for no good reason (was neglected before I got him but was never abused). The guy I gave him to worked him hard as a ranch horse and actually liked him, but he was never going to be any good as a weekend rider. He finally learned to tie after dang near killing himself in the process (after I got rid of him; I gave up trying to tie him and I've taught MANY problem horses to tie). I'll never, NEVER own another one!

BunnyGal2 said...

Thought I'd weigh in on this blog because I'm the proud owner of the Hancock Horses Becky refers to. I purchased 6 - two year olds and 1 - 3 year old all at once for the purpose of breeding string horses for a dude ranch. That fell through, though not due to the Hancock Horses. I sold off 3 of the mare within the first 6 months mostly because I had too many horses and one of them kicked, for no reason, my really nice, really mellow hunter horse. She just had to go. The Stallion I handed over to a trainer because I had never dealt with a stallion before and wasn't quite sure I was cut out to be a stallion owner. Didn't want to screw up from the get go and get really hurt. Now, I'm the only one who handles and rides that "Hancock" stallion. He never did buck and still doesn't. I started the other 2 year old mares and then never bucked either. Two of the mares are half sisters and so totally different from one another you wouldn't believe they are even related. One is ultra quick and ready to please and the other is a "husband save" mare who will take anyone for a ride so long as you don't ask too much, which non-riders don't, so anyone who doesn't know much can ride her. She's so smooth you can put an open beer in your shirt pocket and long trot her. Your beer won't even foam! My new babies are from a Jackie Bee/Hancock bred mare and by my Hancock Stallion. I have a 2 year old filly I'm having trouble with. It could be because of my physical limitations now. I had neck surgery 2 years ago this Sept. and I get a little fatigued wrestling with her, which causes me to take breaks often, sometimes days, before I get back to working with her. The last time I rode her she went into a "buck fest" as you call it. I just stayed centered over her until I could grab her face and pull her around. She stopped as soon as I could get control and didn't try it again. I like my HancockHorses.com. Each and every one of them is a different personality altogether. I don't know how anyone could lump mine together as the same they are not.

Mugwump, thanks for your write-up on Hancock horses. I've ridden um-teen horses in the past 44 years. Lumping them together for some seems to me like saying ... "All presidents are like OBAMA"

KD said...

One of my mares is a 24 yr old Appy who thinks she should be fully retired instead of semi-retired. She's an awesome mare that any of my non-horsey work friends can ride safely, but will still give someone who can ride a good time on the trails.

My other mare is a splashy overo Paint and is my heart. She's quick, smart, sensitive,responsive and has never tried to get rid of me. She has tried to leave me on the trail when stopping for a bio break though. :-)

fuglyhorseoftheday said...

"My favorite Appy joke is something along the lines that the Indians rode them because when they got to where they were going, they were so angry that they fought & beat anything that came against them."

HAHAHA...I was going to post that and then I thought, nope, someone will already have beaten me to it!

You know, it's just like ice cream flavors...to each their own. In Arabs, I like Egyptians. In Quarter Horses, I like all the racing lines, Two Eyed Jack, and Sir Quincy Dan. In Thoroughbreds, I lean toward Seattle Slew and Mr. Prospector.

mugwump said...

"I even trained one I knew would cow and was tempted to buy her and try to show her. The economy squashed that plan but she has a good life as a trail horse."

...Uh Michelle, did you miss this part of my comments on mustangs?

If I flipped a few words of your comment so it would say, “I will take my domestics over most people's mustangs any day," all hell would break loose.

Ahh Michelle, I think I might be the disappointed one now. My poor, poor, misunderstood domestics. Maybe I should start a foundation.

Michelle said...

Well, to be honest, I think I was in a mood the day I made that comment. I saw this paragraph and got annoyed.

"Mustangs are too hit and miss for me. I don't believe they're a breed. they are mutts. I don't care if they are called Kigers or Spanish, they are horses who have not come from controlled breeding programs. If they run to type they are inbred, not a breed."

It sounded very negative to me. Yes, the paragraph that followed it was much nicer, but by then I already irritated.

I suppose I've seen way too many crappy horses that came from "good" breeding programs. I like that my mustangs are the work of mother nature and not some idiot who thinks their horse has a pretty head and balls or a hooha.

Before you going thinking I am some crazy mustang hoarder, I am not. I do really love my mustangs, but I also love my paint pony.

Mustangs aren't for everyone. I get that. They require a certain amount of dedication, patience, and persistance. I have found, in the right hands, they are fabulous horses. They have stamina, heart, and are generally healthy with good feet.

"I will take my mustangs over most people's domestics any day."

I menat that. However, the key word was MY mustangs. Like you, I put a lot of time and work into my horses. No, they are not show horses. They are good, reliable trail horses. Could they do somthing else? I don't know, maybe not. They are what they are because that's what I like to do. They are well behaved and have manners. They take good care of my 9 yo daughter, my hubby, and me. That's all that really matters.

I guess I like my horses like my dogs... Mutts. ;)

mugwump said...

Michelle,
I like the ideas coing from this..I'm going to think about mustangs, good breeding programs, color breeds and see how deep I can dig my hole...
I'll start a post and see where we go, this should be fun.
Let's all remember, we horsaii like ALL horses, but we are allowed to have favorites.

SkyBar Farm said...

Have to agree with everything you said Mugs. I will say though as someone who owns several Skipper W's, I found crossing them to my Rugged Lark stud has been a magic cross. I kept back 3 siblings out of one of my skipper W mares. Two full siblings out of my rugged lark stud and one is a half sister. Her sire is out of two eyed jack son. The mare out of two eyed jack can be a tough cookie. She always needs a job. The rugged lark ones, the colt is a dream come true. All business, one heck of a work ethic, anything he is unsure of only takes a few moments to get over, and he is cute, cute, cute. His full sister is stunning in size and looks, but is lazy. She just turned 8 and I watched the light bulb burst over her head. She finally got it and now is a joy. I will say the Skipper W's are not for everyone. They mature late in mind and body, they are forgiving to a degree as long as you do not train with your temper, which I learned the hard way in my earlier years. My dams have crappy feet, but I have managed to breed that out of the 2nd and 3rd generation 90% of the time. I will say though, crossed onto certain pleasure horse lines they are fantastic performers with that gorgeous head as well as a very good form to function build, that can do all-around events and be competitive.

Also, I agree with the polish Arabs. I loved my Polish guys. I owned eqyptians as well and it took a lot of patience, generally more than I was willing to give.

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