Wednesday, February 3, 2010

Bloodlines

Hey, I'm not gone. I'm churning out up to 10 pieces a week AND a cartoon. Good training for the future right? My new catch phrase is "Just put your head down and keep on writing."

I guess I missed Mouthy Monday. I'll try again next week.


Badges- I'll talk about angry/not angry next.....

Michelle asked me about bloodlines, which I like and what I felt safest on.

I had to think about it, because there's a lot of reasons for my feelings on breeding.

When I was in my late 20’s I started to appreciate a good bottle of wine and the taste of aged single malt scotch.

I also found out I was totally incapable of remembering the names of my favorite kinds, the vineyard,the year, the region or any of the details which make you a connoisseur of good liquor.

I learned to trust the suggestions from a few liquor store owners and a bartender or two.

I knew what I liked by flavor not name.

I have the same problem when it comes to my horses.

I’m going to be honest here, I am not a bloodline expert by any stretch.

Names and pedigrees, who does what, how they did it and what effect the bloodlines have absolutely will not stay in my head.

I tend to trust the people who know more than me and listen to their suggestions. I analyze whatever horse I’m currently riding and file the behavior away, if I have similar behavior in other horses bred the same way I remember it.

I’m incapable of remembering any of my horse’s registered names or to tell someone how they are bred.

My daughter showed with me for many years and I would rely on her to tell me what the horses registered names were when I was asked.

Now I am on my own and have to write their names on my palm.

Anybody who knows me well can appreciate what a trick that is.

I do strongly believe in the breeding and the behavior of the mare being equal or superior to the stud. I would never breed a mare who was less than the stud she was being bred to. I would never breed a mare who hasn’t proven her value in the show pen and her temperament by being a good minded partner.

I would never breed a pleasure bred horse to a cow horse, or a halter horse to a reiner.

Unfortunately AQHA has carefully developed, promoted and encouraged separate breeds within the breed and I think in order to insure value we need to breed true to type.

With this in mind I’ll go through some of the bloodlines I have ridden and the impressions I got from them.

My yellow mare has got Smart Chic O Lena on the front page of her papers three times. She has Hollywood Jack twice (I think).

I bought her on the recommendation of the Big K. He wanted me to ride a Chic O Lena because of their high trainability.

He was right, she has almost trained herself and is a delight to ride.

Sonita was out of a ranch stud named Peppy San Redd (I think) there was some Sonoitas and Sonoita Blue in there too.

I didn’t know the breeding and ended up calling the breeder of the stud. She was a rancher in Wyoming and mainly bred horses for ranch use. She told me she had been breeding these horses for 40 years, 95% percent of her horses were gray and they were known for their great temperaments. They had started gaining favor as cutting horses. Sonita was a cherry red chestnut and known for her psychotic temperament.

This was my first lesson in the reality of bloodlines. They can only do so much. She horse was really good on a cow though.

Here’s a run down of the dominant bloodlines on the cow bred horses I have ridden which stuck in my mind. These are the consistencies I noticed.

Paddy’s Irish Whiskey: Beautiful, lovely, elegant. Sweet tempered and talented.

Hi Brow Cat: Long legged, high natural head set, super talented, a lot of horse.

Hollywood Dunnit: Gorgeous, amazing head and eye, huge stopping, low headed reiners. Not known for great cow work, but I’ve seen some great Dunnits in the cow horse world.

Little Dors Lena: Really pretty, stocky, lively horses. Smart and willthink of stuff to do if you don’t keep them busy.

Shining Spark: Huge movers, giant maneuvers, rough to ride. Some have trouble falling out of lead in the back. They win and win and win. Sweet and easy to get along on.

Chic Please: Fiercely cowy, complicated, sometimes fearful.

Reminic: Lots of horse, huge on a cow. Hang on and know what you’re doing.

The Smart Smoke: Sweet and quiet. Will trick you into thinking they are lazy. They have rockets in their butt and huge acceleration. If you push them they will blow up. They’re more sensitive than they look.

I have also ridden a lot of foundation bred horses.

I like the Poco Buenos.They are pretty headed and smart.

I am not a fan of Hancock’s. In my experience they have been hard to start. I have been told they are great horses once they are up and running, but I have only had trouble with them.

I have had success with the Gay Bar King lines also. Lot’s of cow, lots of speed, a little nervy. Some f the old time cutters covet the Gay Bar King stuff.

Doc’s JJ is a Foundation cutter. My daughter has one and he is about the nicest, calmest most reliable thing I’ve ever been around. He works really low and snaky. He should be in the cutting pen. He's stops so nice he'll be fine as a cowhorse.

The thing about Foundation breeding is it’s the favorite way to go for the back yard breeders. If Doc Bar or King is within 20 generations some bozo will think it qualifies his three-legged quadruple cryptorchid as stud worthy.

I think Foundation bred horses get a bad rap because of it. If I was going to buy a Foundation bred horse I would buy a horse from a working ranch. I would watch the horses they used and pick out the type of horse which suits my needs.

I read an interesting comment by Curt Pate, an AQHA Professional Horseman featured as the AQHA Regional Experience clinician from Newell,South Dakota. He said if he was looking for the most versatility out of his quarterhorse he wouldn’t buy one that was bred with too much cow.

This comment makes sense. If I wanted a trail horse I would look at whatever horse did the job. I don’t think they need to be bred for this job, they simply need to have solid bone, a strong back, decent agility and a good mind. Qualities which any breed or any bloodline should have.

I still am a person who believes a lot can be accomplished with a horse who may not be bred right but still has the desire to do the job.

51 comments:

Susan said...

I haven't ridden as many different bloodlines as you have, but I agree with what you wrote. Sensible is more important than cowiness in most situations, and one famous ancestor doesn't make the horse. And mares not only contribute half of the genes, they are responsible for nurturing and socializing the foal when it's young.

cdncowgirl said...

I don't know a lot about bloodlines but I've heard that mares that go back to Gay Bar King are awesome.
I also know that I will never by a Sir Quincy Dan bred horse ever again. I had absolutely awful experiences with my gelding, almost totally lost confidence in any ability I had. Heard from a lot of "bloodline" people after that he was a very typical Sir Quincy Dan.

I like what you said about horses that aren't neccessarily bred for the job but being able to do it.
My mare is a Thoroughbred. Raced on the track, did pretty well in the lower level races at our little track. I used her on barrels and won everything in our division. Used to really piss off some of the QH people... especially my best friend who I consistently beat. lol This was despite her gelding being built for barrels.
I do think a big part of that was my horse being a mare and she & I having a great relationship. I think if you've got that relationship with a mare she'll try SO much more for you than a gelding will.

joycemocha said...

You'd like my girl. She's got Chocolate Chic Olena (son or grandson of Smart Chic Olena, I forget which), so I guess that makes her and your yellow mare kissing cousins. Doc O'Lena top and bottom, and she's also got Gay Bar King top and bottom. A lot of cow breeding--her half sister earned a rep because as a yearling she successfully penned a young ram that got into her pasture. But an awful lot of reiner breeding as well. Nice little sports car of a horse, hot without being stupid (unless she's in a pissy mood about something), and loves to get out in the arena and do blowout works, then go for a nice trail ride along the Christmas tree farm right by the road to cool off.

Cdncowgirl, if that's one of the factors in her awesomeness, then I'll take it. The combination of Doc O'Lena and Gay Bar King breeding top and bottom is right nice.

That said, she's nearly the spitting image of her mama in looks and temperament. And my trainer's wife got a wee bit choked up seeing him ride her a few months back--they'd owned her mama, and bred my girl, and mama was one of their favorite mares. She said it was like watching G up on Mocha's mama again.

onetoomany said...

I've been thinking about this sort of thing a lot. This spring I bought my dream baby. Highbrow Hickory, Smart Little Lena, Haidas Sugar Doc on top and Two Eyed Jack and Zan Parr Bar on the bottom. She has a half-sibling (same stud) that has similar breeding on the bottom and they both seem to have the same sort of temperment so far. Very bold, very up and both have tempers. I haven't had too much experience with the Highbrow Hickory line before but from what I've seen they are very bold horses. The Hollywood Jac babies that I've run across have all been amazing performers (and mostly very good looking) but kind of silly and tempermental. A breeder I know that has a direct son gets great crosses with his direct Dry Doc daughter. I love Peppy San Badger bred horses. All the ones I've met have just been sweet, sweet, sweet.

I couldn't agree with you more about a horse who may not be bred right but having the will. I would not have imagined that my horse would be the cow horse she is. She's definitely not catty like the QH's I've been around but she knows her way around a cow and she loves doing it. It never gets old for her. She is a more athletically bred Arab so that does help but I would have never thought when I bought her that five years later we'd be chasing cattle and winning. Showed me what I know.

Holly said...

Bloodlines are somewhere around third or fourth on my list for buying horses. I'll look at it but if a horse is a snot, there isn't a chance I'll buy it. My 5 y/o gelding is halter crossed with reining/cow. Kid Clu, Impressive and Sugar Vandy. At 16+ hh he and cows make for a wild ride. But Keeper is always sweet and willing to please.
I do check broodmare bloodlines, after temperment, ability and conformation. But my best girl is heavily bred to a appy named secret weapon who I didn't know until I met an old cowboy. He told me that he had sold 2 doc olena geldings for one secret weapon gelding. apparently "the best working horses ever. Go all day and trot on home." I think if you start looking for horses based on bloodlines and winners you miss out on some amazing horses. like if you're looking for a great appy cow stud for a mare that throws her size: Butterwap Confetti. I haven't seen a bad cross from him, and he really likes cows (16.2 hh is another wild ride tho)

Mrs Mom said...

If the 2 pali Hollywood Dunnit fillies we see on a regular basis speak for that line, I can say heartily... *I WANT ONE. Or Two...*

Think of you every time we see them Mugs. Would love to hear your thoughts on those two girls. Actually, on the other two fillies this man has too.... All I can see is smart, heart, KIND, try by the truckfull, athletic, and very, very easy on the eyes.

Thanks for sharing the wisdom!

LuvMyTBs said...

As always Mugs,a great topic. I will check back to read the comments several times. Here is my 2 cents worth from another view.

I know nothing about your world of reining,cutting,fence work,and how important being "cowy" is if it's bred into them or trained/learned.

In my world of H/J/Eventing there are TB horses that we look for based on their bloodlines for what we KNOW produces the athlete we want and need. In the TB's if you see certain horses in the top and bottom of a pedigree you know you have a horse that will and has been capable and consistently built (soundness and form/function) to excell at the jobs we ask them to do.Many of these horses are former racers and their race record for the most part is/was meaningless to us.It's the drive,heart,mind and physical builds,strengths and abilities that these horses consistently have that makes them so desirable.

Wazzoo said...

Mmmm...Newell, SD! Gosh I am homesick now! You can drive around that area and see some of the most beautiful horses! Can't wait to go home in the spring! I'm not originally from there but we bought property there a few years ago...then had to move because I got a job offer. Job is good, Georgia sucks. Can't wait to go home and eat at a decent resteraunt!! The Blue Line Diner ROCKS! And so do the people in Newell!

OneDandyHorse said...

Super duper interesting! I do plan on breeding my mare for a foal, but, I plan on keeping the foal forever and if I can't do that, well there will be no breeding at all. My mare is half Percheron and has some quarter horse to her (grade) but her sire's side is a great line (Percheron), her grandsire is Confetti, a founder of the breed. My mare is not bad looking (picture) and is pretty well put together, nice long hip, good shoulder, Deep, good bone, nice neck set, great feet. The only thing that I would maybe change about her, is her head. She has a Perch head that I would refine a bit. So I'm looking for a stud with the same caracteristics as my mare, but with a super nice, super refined head. Since I have always been interested in Appaloosa horses, I am looking for a good Appy Stud. The one I am looking at is super nice, double registered and very correct, also sports a super nice head... so I am still in the process of thinking it over, but if I decide on breeding, he would probably be the stud. I do not show and do not plan to do so. We ride trails and the foal would eventually replace our old mares that will retire in a 5-10 years. I am not going for Perch studs because I want a horse that is a bit lighter, but that can still carry a rider all day.

carrie said...

My first reiner was a stout gelding with Colonel Freckles and Gay Bar King lines. Minus fireworks, nothing phased this horse. He was a great teacher: knew everything about the sport to win it, and smart enough to make you work to get it.

The horse of my dreams, and the one I curse every morning when I feed him, is a Boomernic son (Reminic lines). When I first started reading your tales of Sonita, the similarities between the two had me laughing, and sharing your frustration. Your description of the line is spot on. He’s a lot of horse, extremely intelligent, easily bored, and always keeps me on my toes. I strongly recommend reading Greg Ward’s tales of Fillinic. I would have loved to see that mare in action. I feel for my boy the way he did about her.

I’ve also grown fond of the Whizard Jac lines. We have both a gelding and mare by him. From our observations they can be late to bloom (and, therefore, started a bit later), talented, trainable, and are a lot of horse. They learn at their own pace, and if pushed too hard will push right back.

nineisenuff said...

I could not agree more with your comment about the contribution of the mare, and with Susan's comment about the nurturing of the foal.

Early last fall I decided to buy a barrel prospect from a local breeder. They had 6 3yr old geldings on a sale, by 2 different studs. For me, quiet & sane is more important than speed at this time of my life. We watched preview videos, went to see them in person, and picked out two possibilities. I was able to buy my #1 pick. At the time, I had seen the mares, but didn't study them as much as the geldings themselves. I am absolutely convinced that I bought the quietest one they had. Turns out, he's out of a daughter of Firewater Flit, a horse known for reproducing a good temperament. If I buy another one, you can bet I will be studying the mares even more than I look at the stud. Great topic!

surprisewind said...

I had a Sir Quincy Dan bred mare long ago. Best mare I've ever ridden, most fun, oddly VERY cowy, athletic, would do anything I asked of her. Key word: "asked". Red Mare and I loved each other and got into all sorts of predicaments together, qualified for state team pennings (she was lame, I had to compete on another horse), and scared the holy hell out of my mother on a daily basis. She wasn't trained til we purchased her as a resale project when she was 10. If she hadn't been a total fruitbat, it would have been a lucrative project.
So, I totally agree that the horse not bred for the job can't do it. She wasn't bred for 99% of the things she was very, very good at. Most of the horses we've had have been the same. A good mind and a sound body are the base. Ideal pedigree is a perk.

gtyyup said...

I'm glad you shared your thoughts on this subject. I've not been a "studier" of bloodlines, so it's nice to read your experience...and you've ridden a bunch! As I start looking for a 2 year old, this info will come in handy.

My husband's horse is an own son of Paddy's Irish Whiskey. He's 11 this year I think and was buckaroo'd on for 7 years. He really is a handsome guy. His conformation fault is that he's pigeon toed, which I assume would have come from his dam's side. He's mainly been used for branding and doctoring, but since my Colt's out of commission for a few weeks, I'm tempted to try him at the next cutting clinic and see how he does.

I had a Sir Quincy Dan gelding probably 20 years ago and I liked him. We just trail rode him, but he was kind and willing. But, that's the only SQD I've ever had contact with.

While working for Todd, we seemed to always get a lot of Dash for Cash colts in for starting. They weren't the easiest that's for sure. They were awfully hot. But it seemed that once you got them going, they were willing to get with the program. BTW, these colts were usually going to be used for barrels...not cow work.

K said...

This is one of my favorite topics. I am an absolute pedigree geek. I inherited it from my dad. Very interesting to read your take on some of the bloodlines you've worked with. I must admit I have been wanting a Paddys Irish Whiskey for some time. I have heard that his get are the easiest of the three PSB X Docs Starlight studs, and pretty to boot, although they're all pretty.

One of my favorite bloodlines is King Fritz. They are generally slow developing, so not futurity horses, but they make some of the best broke horses. All of the ones I have ridden have a lot of ability to get in the ground and all the cow you could ever want. The line also tends to have some size in it, which at 6'2", I like. You still see a lot of King Fritz on the maternal side of some of the great horses like West Coast Whiz (RIP), Nu Chex to Cash and many others that aren't on the tip of my tongue this morning. If I remember correctly, the good Dun It cow horses are usually out of King Fritz bred mares.

I have heard just what you said about Reminics before-- uber talented, but pretty much a pro ride. That, combined with their tendency to be lee-tle, inspires me to admire them under someone else's saddle.

I also do not personally get along with Sir Quincy Dan horses, and I've had my leg over a few of them. I also don't care for horses descended from Major Bonanza on the sire's side. There are lots of people in this world that love both of those bloodlines, luckily for me there are plenty of horses without them, so we can all be happy. ;-)

K said...

Question:

Anyone ridden a Playgun or two? Opinions?

badges blues N jazz said...

opinion on my new boys pedigree?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lenas+trickshot

Hot? trainable? anyone know alot about these lines? thanks!

kel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
kel said...

mugs said...I still am a person who believes a lot can be accomplished with a horse who may not be bred right but still has the desire to do the job.

I have one of those. He was a paint horse that was bred to run. The breeder is a huge fan of Leo Maude and Chicks Beduino. Didn't have the temperment to go to the track and got left behind on the ranch. He is athletic and a real pleaser. He wants to make you happy. If you can explain it, he can understand it and he will give it to you every time. He is 16 hands and thick made. He is not the norm for a reiner, but he is getting the job done as well as horses "bred" to be reiners.

I have ridden a daughter of the great Poco Bueno when I was a young'un. She was gorgeous, black and HOT, HOT, HOT. Fast, athletic, cowy and a real thinker. My first intro into small agile horses. Of course I was about 13 at the time, had no fear. She was fun.

I have owned a grandson of Peppy San Badger. He was sweet but lazy. He had the ability, but not the try. Always looking for a way to get out of work. He was a great horse to gather cattle on and trail ride. He hated loping circles or anything else that he considered a mundane task.

I have had 3 Hancock/Blue Valentine bred horses and I love them. They all have great temperments and easy to be around. Extremely trainable when they are ready. What I think about the Hancocks is that they don't mature mentally as fast as some. The first two are 4 this year and doing great. One is doing working cow horse and will be started heeling soon and the other is at a reining trainer. My filly is 3 this year and has just been started under saddle. I waited to start all of them till they were almost 3 years old. The stud I used has his superior in heading and heeling, ranch halter and is starting to do working cowhorse. You can see him here http://griffithquarterhorses.com/stallion.html
I bred him to my mare that is by a horse called Pickapepper by Peppy San. Her maternal lines are old, old foundation lines. My babies are small, flashy (beautiful heads) conformationally correct and have alot of cow.

I bred the same mare from above to a stud named Little Rey Lena. He is by Lenas Sugarman by Doc O lena on a Peppy San Badger bred mare. He is a thinker. Quiet and willing, so far, so good.

I also have a filly by a stud named Tuf n Buck by Tuf and Busy. Her dam goes back (way to many generations to count) to Gay Bar King. She is a wildcard. Everyone that sees her just loves her. The jury is still out on her.

My thoughts on genetics and pedigree are influenced by my two daughters. They are 18 months apart, same mom, same dad. Raised in the same house under the same conditions. They are about as opposite as two humans can be, physically and mentally. One is tall, one is short, one is athletic, one not so much, one has straight hair, one has curly hair, one is very extroverted, one is more subdued, one is more of a "think then speak or act", one has her heart on her sleeve all the time and never thinks before she speaks - ever. All the qualities I admire in one, are the ones that are less recognizable in the other. Why should it be so different in horses? I do believe that genetics plays a role but it isn't by any means a guarantee of any ability or temperment.

http://horsegenes.blogspot.com/

Adventures of a Horse Crazed Mind said...

I'd love to know if you've had much experience with Roosters. My mare (daughter) is one of the best minded horses you'll ever meet, has all the try you could hope for and the gritt to back it up... but the size of her body (in bulk) can get in her way....at 14.1HH she is nearly as wide as she is tall. Funny that Rooster, Paddy's Irish and Grays Starlight are all full brothers and incredible sires in their own right but in different sports- (Rooster- reining, Paddy- Cow Horse, Gray's- cutting). Their dam was an incredible producer (what I look for in a stallion is a really strong maternal line).



Royal Blue Boon, Miss Dual Doc, Diamond's Sparkle- Some mare's just turn out gold with every foal. That is the kind of maternal bloodline that I love.

Btw, there is a forth full brother (to paddy, grays and rooster) who stands at stud (Badger Starlight) that most people dont even known exists.

Saskia said...

I'd love to hear some thoughts on current pleasure/All-Around lines, I'm specifically interested in lines known for being tall and beginner friendly. I'm looking for my first show horse but still want to trail ride, weather permitting.
From my own barn I've seen Impressive mares seem to be talented but temperamental. My favorite school horse (sweet, honest and patient)is a Jetalito bred gelding, but he couldn't lope his way out of a paper bag.

TCavanaugh said...

It is amazing what things are passed from generation to generation. I personally have had a couple of Impressive bred horses and don't care for them. They are extremely smart, but too much horse for me (I am just a backyard girl). I love my AQHA mare and have bred her to several different lines. She is Bar, Jet Deck and goes back (way back) to Skipper W. She always throws a quiet tempered, quick learning, large hipped foal.

K said...

Saskia~ I think some of the best minded pleasure horses are the Zippos Mr Goodbar horses. His dam goes back to Blondys Dude, which is a line I usually find to be good minded. Most of ZMGB's sons seem to throw nice minds, and they're generally cheaper than direct ZMGB get. They can be a little coarse though the neck, but are generally nice movers with good body and kind minds.

The Barpassers can be a little tough (he was bred to be a racehorse) and I don't care for the Docs Hotrodder/Hotrodders Jet Set lines (can be hot if not crossed on something really good minded). Zippos Old Gold is also noted for throwing really good minded offspring.

There is a Delphi forum devoted to pleasure horses that has some very knowledgeable people on it. I'm sure if you asked there, you'd get more information than you could dream of. Google "Pleasure Horse Journal forum" and you should find it.

HorsesAndTurbos said...

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ky+star+is+what+ir

I don't expect anyone to recognize Starlette's dam, maybe her sire (QH racehorse, Midwest area, TB, etc.), but I was told her bottom side is foundation.

Does anyone have any idea what her background is?

Thanks! Jackie

kel said...

I forgot one...This is probably falls under the catagory of "What not to do".

A couple of years ago we were at a sale at a very well recognized Vetrinarian medicine college in CA. They were selling yearlings and bred mares. I did not get a number because I DID NOT NEED ANOTHER HORSE. But My husband did get a number. So the last two or three horses were coming up and one was a bred mare. She was bred to a horse called Little Doc Belle who is by a cutting horse sire SR Instant Choice. The school owns Little Doc Belle and he was unshown due to the fact that he has no right eye. The mare was a Zippo Pine Bar bred mare. Her maternal line goes to Impressive by way of Zip to Impress. She was unshown due to lameness (on and off) in her front left. Of course said school never took the time to figure out what the lameness was caused by. Another story. The mare is HYPP N/N so she does not carry the HYPP gene and can't pass it. The stud fee for Little Doc Belle was $750 - they couldn't get a bid of $350 for the mare. My husband just couldn't keep his hand down and now we own said mare and her offspring. The colt is absolutely gorgeous. He is the most stylish horse that I own and the sucker is quick and catty. When I read mugs post that she wouldn't bred a halter horse to a a reiner...I had to chuckle. I don't know what this boy is going to do or be but whatever it is he is going to look good doing it!

mugwump said...

Kel and Holly- I'm not dissing your horses I swear. BUT most of the time if you breed a halter horse to a reiner you will get a heavily muscled, very pretty horse with limited movement.
You will water down the halter and the reiner and get one that isn't quite one side or the other.
It might be fine for a at home horse or a local competiter. It will not become a World show finalist.
I just saw this happen with one of my former clients(now my boss).
She had a pleasure horse stud breeding.
She didn't have an open pleasure bred mare.
She used the $3500 pleasure horse breeding on a Shining Spark daughter.
When she first told me about this I said, you'll end up with a horse who's too flat moving to rein and to high legged to pleasure.
She said, "No I won't, she's (the filly) short and cute but much more level headed than her mother.She'll be a great reining prospect."
Guess what? She's a very sweet, good looking filly who is too flat kneed to rein and too quick legged to pleasure.This came from the pleasure horse trainer she took her to and the reining horse trainer sh went to next.
She's in training with a roper, but he doesn't think she'll cut it. She's too laid back and doesn't want to cow.
They paid $3500 for the stud fee.
Paid for the mare and baby care.
Raised her to 2 years old.
Have put 1 1/2 years of professional training on her and there you go.
Somebody is going to end up with a real cool horse at a good price. I just hope she has enough sense to ride trails.

smazourek said...

How interesting that I'm posting after Kel and Mugwump's last comments because I happen to have an Impressive/ Zippo Pine Bars mare and was wondering if anyone had any experience with that combination. She's very smart but is a complete powderkeg just waiting to blow at all times.

Bif said...

I've worked with a few AQHA, but not enough to know many of the more modern bloodlines, and not in a training capacity. I've liked Badgers, and I this filly (who was snatched up QUICK, darn it!) Sky Mist Twist on allbreedpedigree is an interesting horse, in that nothing repeats (and no Impressive) until Three Bars twice in her 5th generation.

Her pictures showed a versatile,very balanced, evenly muscled horse with good legs and good feet, so perhaps she would be an example of the elusive "all around" lines Mugs mentioned in her post, rather than being super specialized. I wish I'd thought to grab her pics when she was listed... I was tempted to go look at her, and I'm usually not a "red mare" kind of girl, and Quarter to boot! She might not end up being the best reiner, or very cowy, but she looked like she'd be a real pleasure you could trail, ride western, or jump in the real world hunt field (where most "HUS" I've seen would need to learn to carry themselves in a hurry or have a nasty accident).

LuvMyTBs, I agree about the TBs and certain lines. One line you don't see too much is Trempolino... every direct offspring I've worked with were super smart, sweet, good minded horses, and seemed well balanced and athletic, too. I like Cox's Ridge, too.

kel said...

mugs... I didn't think that you were ragging on my horses. I would not have done that breeding either. That is why I am glad we only paid $350 bucks for the mare. Fortunately the mare looks more like a reining horse than she does a pleasure or halter horse. She is not real heavey muscled, not to thick made, she is short coupled and has a nice head and neck. When I look at her I don't see halter horse or a western pleasure horse either. But she was never shown so we will never know. I don't think any of my horses are going to be superstars anywhere. They will be fine for non pro's or for anyone wanting a nice horse with good manners.

Holly said...

I don't think your ragging on my horse either. I think we're making the same point, to cross desired ability with desired ability.
I got Keeper to be my easy going gelding, and he his willing to try anything. BUT, I knew when I got him that he wasn't going to be competitive in cutting or reining were out 'cause at three he was 16hh and now at five he is 16.2 (his mom has a latent tall gene.) His pedigree and the conformation of his dam and sire look like they would make great little performance horses. And some of them are (he has full siblings that are built for cow and competitive reining horses and at least one that is taller than him.)
However, I didn't buy him with an goal for competitions, he is the horse I practice my equitation on. He is a laid back, easy going relaxed boy.
But his pedigree has little to do with it (as does his intimidating registered name). http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/keeps+youin+stitches
And if Keeper doesn't make it to the world show that is more my 'fault' for refusing to retard his gaits or make him lope sideways (Yeah, I think a pleasure horse should be a great ride that gets you from point a to point b in a reasonable amount of time, with little to no effort. I'm all about cruise control, baby.)
Speaking of which, Mrs Mom: I have a cow/reining bred baby that you may be interested in. Her mom is my reined cow horse mare by a Hollywood Dun It bred stud, both of whom have proven that they throw well.
And, the next time your boss has a $3500 pleasure horse breeding, I can use it on Venus http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/shesa+glowin+zipper
bred for and performed in pleasure and she's a sweetheart! (It isn't a shameless plug but: I bought her for 500 dollars from a herd reduction is a shameless plug.) That is if my mom or my vets do sneak away with her in the middle of the night. As I type this I realize that I have a lot of horses. Shall I tell you about my wannabe dressage mustang? I'm gonna stop now...

Justaplainsam said...

Well I do the more pleasure/HUS thing...

I have a Luke At Me gelding. His mother is a TB so it makes him more than 50% TB But so laid back, the TB comes out when he is stressed but thankfully he looks more like a QH when hes carrying just a touch of extra weight.

There is a local line - Duly's First - that traces back to Impressive. Extreamly smart horses (sometimes to smart!) And seem to be talented enough to do the all-around, which is a hard job now. My halter app last year was out of this line.

Love the Investment asset horses, ive heard the OHK's can be a tough nut to crack but once they start learing they are ok... My friend has a Skys Blue Boy grandson that is awsome, talented and intelegent.

I do have to comment that the 'top' or most in fashion WP/HUS studs change about every 5 years, much more different than the cowhorse/reining worlds

mugwump said...

Go Holly....I could not give in to the I wanna's while I was training, I still ended up with more horses than I can possibly ride...but there was a little mustang mare I was supposed to ride, sell and pay myself out of her sae. I loved the little squirt. Cute, rotten, fun, big motor, good legs and could stop.
I made the mistake of saying I might just keep her and head for one of the mustang competitions. Wham! The owner showed up, paid me off and took her back.
There was an OTTB gray mare (the one I almost killed by tying her). She was the sweetest thing. Beautiful, fun to ride, very little spook. My daughter was begging me to buy her.
I said, "What would you do with her?"
She said,"Run her across the field."
She was shiny eyed in love after galloping her across the prairie.
I have a huge failing. I like every single horse I meet. Even the really rotten ones.

Justaplainsam said...

Mugs : Had the chiropractor out today. Lucas had 6 ribs out on one side, and 2 on the other. The chiropractor said that he must be quite the horse, letting me ride him when he was in that much pain. I guess that answers alot of my questions.

Deered said...

There are times when I'm glad that over here papers don't matter quite so much - the main eq sport is eventing or "english pleasure" and the bred or lack of doesn't really count. There are a lot of what would be called trail horses here that are the "world famous in New Zealand" bred - the Stationbred. They're the grade horses that were bred for working on the big sheep farms (stations) normally a cross of TB and draft. A number of farms got reputations for breeding horses that were good minded, good footed, atheletic and sane, for a while the St James horses were selling for $1-2k for the yearlings/2 year olds.
I've ridden a couple that you could jump over 4ft fences one day, chase cows and or sheep the next - nothing as fancy as "proper cow work" but you could clear a paddock then follow along behind the mob until you got them where they needed to be, and then take them trail riding.
They're never going to be world champions at any discipline, however they tend to find good homes because they are useable for so many things.

I think it's horses for courses or societies - the showing scene isn't as big here - so there isn't the $$ associated so for most people the do anything horse is best.

mugwump said...

justaplainsam- I guess! I would think you're in for a big improvement.
Deered- You guys have the idea. I think I would like a stationbred horse very much.

HorsesAndTurbos said...

Found out more about my mare's breeding...I posted on a local midwest group, and they recognized the more upfront horses - her grand/greatgrand are obvious.

Turns out she's bred for speed (obvious with the TB/racing topside) and performance with some cow on the bottom. I wondered about the cow...you should see us chase critters out of the pasture! Head down, ears pinned, focuses right on them. Have chased cats, rabbits, even a robin LOL!

So my first guess was someone bred her for barrel racing/gaming was right on. Of course, I am riding her dressage - guess I'll have to find a barrel saddle that fits for fun!

quietann said...

I know next to nothing about QH lines, but my little Morgan mare has about 10 crosses to Jubilee King, and several to his full sister Sentola, though the closest is back 5 generations. There's a connection to QHs though; JK was sold to a rancher in TX and appears in QH pedigrees as "Yellow Jacket." I've been told the Jubilee King blood is great for sport/working Morgans. She has one grand-dam from "show" Morgan stock (lots of Saddlebreds back there) and that adds a little bit of "fancy" to an otherwise great work-horse/Foundation Morgan pedigree.

Charlotte. said...

This was a really interesting post, mugwump, thank you!

I can be a bit of a pedigree freak and while I've met and owned some awesome grade or just mediocre bred horses, I do really like having something well bred.

I thought it was interesting what you said about the Paddys Irish Whiskeys. My new yearling is by Badger Starlight (the second of the 4 PSB/Docs Starlight brothers) - he was unfortunately unshown due to injury but apparently was in cutting training before that. She is out of a finished cutting mare by Bob Acre Doc, who's out of a NCHA money earning and producing daughter of Gay Bar King. We bought her largely on pedigree and it's certainly worked out - we're head over heels for her. She's bossy bossy but has the most mellow, sensible temperament with people. Just a complete puppy dog.

My 5 year old who, a few generations back, is Peppy San Badger, Colonel Freckles and Doc Olena on the top and Doc Olena and Peppy San on the bottom is a different story. Really really cowy mare with a big stop, and sucky on the ground just like Liz, but overall she's a much hotter and more sensitive horse.

momi said...

hi,opinion on my pedigree???
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/benitas+show+girl

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